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Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: Fast Sjonny
Date: June 26, 2005 04:52PM

Because of some posts where I read some lines about an updated Wechselbalg, I throw this ball up ;-)))

Wechselbalg 0.8.2+ is based on the 'old' 0.8.2 and the Mozilla 1.8a2 engine.
0.8.2 is replaced by 0.9 and the Mozilla engine is on 1.8b2/ b3 status now, so it would be a logic thing to think about an updated Wechselbalg.

Because I do not have the emailadresses anymore, and it would be nice to have more people working on it (although the 'Wechselbalg developers group' was probably the largest KM developer group ever...), I have started this topic.

I have read somewhere on the KM-forums that Dorian is not available anymore for making builds.
When some people are willing to help, basically because I have a little experience now with building under Linux but not under Windows, I will try to make a buildplatform on my old Windows-laptop (P2 300Mhz).

Hao, Guenter, Jimmymac, and may be even Dorian and Sebastian, are you all willing to start a 'Wechselbalg update developers group' again to make this a succes?

And to the others on this forum;
- are there people willing to make other translations
- are there people willing to help with implement macro's
etc....

To make things clear from the beginning;
I am still visiting the KM website almost every day, but I am not a user anymore.
So I am willing to help to make an updated WB-version, I am willing to make a buildplatform (and hope I will manage to do that then), but the rest of the work must be done by others.
And ofcourse, a new WB-version can have it's place by it's older brother on the WB-page.

Jan.

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: Hao Jiang
Date: June 26, 2005 11:15PM

Dear Jan,
I do agree to update WB version now and I 'm available also. But for making KM 0.9 code work with Gecko 1.8b2/b3, there is need to change more original KM code which I am still not very clear. If we can have more people like Dorian and Sebanstian's help, maybe we can make the new exe. With this done, then it will be time to do the macro implementation and refinements.

Hao

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: Walt Stanley
Date: June 27, 2005 01:42AM

Hi:

I thought Guenter had updated Wechselbalg 0.8.2+ to Wald_Wolf0.9 and now to
K-m09_1.79Beta?

Since I am just a "tinker", I use Guenter's versions because they are so stable. But, am I not correct in thinking that this last version is what the developers would be building on?

Walt

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: guenter
Date: June 27, 2005 06:21PM

mine are no compilations : o (
they are GRE updates of Ulf ´s stable build.
i am like Walt just a tinker.


If we people from user forum go for a new run we should also ask our official devs!
- else we have the same problem as last years that one group is just finished and has used up the time the individual members can afford

- and then the next group starts ... that is big waste ... as we had last year ...

If we do a k-m based on 1.8.x we should do both a static and a dynamic!
a Wechselbalg and a K-Meleon.

Reason: every second tinker in forum is now able to update a dynamic k-m,
which means that we can distribute work much better - IMHO we always had someone during the last couple of months that had some spare
time to update GRE for the rest of us - when we needed an update of GRE.

Also: i have observed that other browsers using embed are able to use a broader varity of GRE. Only k-m is tyed to a single group of GRE like 1.7.x series - maybe we should look for solutions that make us free to use any GRE like Sylera and other embed based browsers do.

Also should not we wait untill 1.8.x is almost ready for issue - before we start?

About translations: i can try to make another translation helper script
(i have learned some more js since i tried the last update of it)
- but IMHO we should try to reduce menus and macros and have a very close look at how Mozilla makes its translations and whether we can copy any of that.

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: Fast Sjonny
Date: June 27, 2005 08:14PM

It would be nice if we could think about a way KM is using the Moz-engine, but more flexible. So that it would be easier to switch engine-versions.

Another point is the language. Now, some texts are in the build itself, other texts are in the macro's and the rest is in the menus file I believe.
It would be easier if there was one language-file with all the translations, using variables for picking them up.
For example, in the menu File, the text 'save page as': in the menusfile it could be a variable like $save_page, where the prefs.js is saying to KM that lang_uk.txt must be used, where KM is finding a line $save_page = 'Save page as...';
This way making translations is much easier, and possible for everyone without the need of a new build.
The problem is we need a real programmer for this....

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: Fast Sjonny
Date: June 27, 2005 08:19PM

Sorry, had telephone and therefor finished my post a little too early.

About my first point;
It would be nice if we could use the standard Moz-engine, where the files from KM and Moz are completely separated. Not with a complete Mozilla installation needed, but just the engine, and a link to the Moz-engine in the KM prefs-file or Moz-engine in the path. This way it is very simple to change engines without a new KM-installation, other setup parameters, a new build etc...

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: guenter
Date: June 27, 2005 09:17PM

k-m uses more Mozilla files than those that are in the engine.

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: Fast Sjonny
Date: June 27, 2005 11:05PM

Hmm, so if I understand you well, it is not so easy to split the files from KM and Mozilla....

Okay, first let see if there is enough interest for a new project, and as you have said, let's ask the developers then too because we have spent enough spare time last year ;-)))

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: guenter
Date: June 29, 2005 12:11PM

Yes also remember that it is a bad idea to start in summer
- better in autumn when good weather, biking and holidays are over.
- and maybe Mozilla has a stable finished 1.8.x
regards

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: Dorian
Date: July 02, 2005 03:03AM

I'm still here grinning smiley

Waiting for a stable 1.8 would be probably better. I've said I would work on it again with a new stable mozilla build, but I didn't know it would take so long =)

As for the language suggestion I don't think it's possible. I think it was already suggested before. Don't forget there is also text in chrome; and people who want to personalize menus and other stuff will have to mess with a language file.

Separating moz and KM ? KM is merely just a 200Ko executable with some plugins. Nearly all the rest is mozilla ... I'm not sure what is the gain here. Anyways Wechselbalg is a static build for better speed and size.

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: ndebord
Date: July 02, 2005 05:55AM

Everyone,

Well, since the Mozilla Foundation is never going to release a final Mozila Suite (Seamonkey) 1.8, the question would be WHICH of the nightlies will be the final 1.8??? Or is that something that will come about with the release of a Seamonkey v1.0 which is the1.8 version that the Mozilla Foundation refuses to have anything official to do with?

N

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: Fred
Date: July 02, 2005 11:19AM

I would prefer a static as well as a non-static 1.8 version.
A static exe is much more difficult to up-date than a non-static
version and needs a new build. As we are not sure to have
real programmers in the future, it is a dangerous option
to keep a static version only, as frequent bug fixes are
probably needed constantly. I would suggest to continue to keep
both possibilities, as it used to be until now.

Fred

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: guenter
Date: July 03, 2005 12:12AM

hi Dorian
- nice to have You around.

Easier translations: Yes, that has been suggested - also by me.

I learned a lot about chrome and how it works since Your last post here.
I suggest that we try to find a similar way to translate / like their *.dtd
(maybe have a look into an en-US.jar?)

that or an ini like AM Browser has.
the later at least for the menus inside exe and plugins.

Translation helper scripts can be effectively generated for dtd and ini system.

Separating moz and KM!
Several other browser and other software that use Mozilla GRE are not as dependent on a specific GRE as k-m.
They can use any if patched with IE patcher.
Others e. g. Sylera or Sleipnir can use a
whole series of GRE without being patched.

I suggest to re-design k-m that it can use different GRE.
And i suggest this for the same reason why
Fred would like to have a dynamic too.

i can not be sure to have a friendly Dorian or Ulf that is here and gives
us a browser update when we need e. g. a security update.

i would like to be able to do small updates myself. And i would like to be independ of whether a certain type of GRE (like 1.7.x series) is still available. And i would like to chose the best and fastest GRE that is available.

As it is the few people that can program and build and are interested in this browser spent much time every half year (or s)o to adapt the browser to a new GRE.

I feel that this is unproductive - they could rather program some nice addition to the
browser instead - while the user Forum maintains an updated browser.
greetings to beautiful France - guenter

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: ndebord
Date: July 03, 2005 10:17AM

Guenter,

Yes, getting all the various people (you know who you are!) who have provided customized versions of K-Meleon to take some of their time, energy and talent to try and get K-Meleon over to a new GRE along with their nice updated KM versions.

That is a worthy goal indeed!

N

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: guenter
Date: July 03, 2005 06:44PM

hi ndebord,
I assume we have to win Dorian or Ulf to create a k-m that is independent enough to use any GRE and not just one type. IMHO Forum only has capabilty for incremental improvement and for maintenance. kind regards

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: ndebord
Date: July 03, 2005 10:40PM

Guenter,

Yes, I understand. Ulf or Dorian means a working 1.8xxx GRE and the possibility of a K-Meleon based upon a new design. I saw posts from Ulf at one point that suggested he was looking into that possibility, perhaps the XULRunner project???

Figure the final 1.8 won't be out until later on in this month, so there is time still.

N

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: guenter
Date: July 04, 2005 08:04PM

nedebord;

i looked at xulrunner too -
creating that big dll is a nice compromise between a dynamic and static.

I still look with envy at sylera and such which can be pointed to use almost
any GRE. they have something like a file chooser that You set at a GRE location at first start and that´s all You do! That would make easy updating for us! mfG

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: Fast Sjonny
Date: July 05, 2005 01:43AM

That's the way I ment it with separating the Moz-files and KM-files. It would be great to have this functionality ;)
But I think xulrunner would be a nice compromise too as Guenter said.

About Moz1.8, the 2th of juny the new developersgroup the switch is made to Seaymonkey. And the new Seamonkey 1.0 will probably out in a few weeks, when the mumbling is right ;)

Jan

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: ndebord
Date: July 05, 2005 11:23AM

Dorian,

You're absolutely correct. Who knew it would take so long to get to a 1.8 Moz?

Guess you can chalk up the delay to the divorce between the Mozilla Foundation (aka FireFox and Thunderbird) and the Seamonkey developers (aka The Mozila Suite).

<sigh>

N

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: ndebord
Date: July 05, 2005 11:29AM

Guenter,

G> i looked at xulrunner too - creating that big dll is a nice compromise between a dynamic and static.

Ah, I see. XULRunner then seems like the next thing to go for AFTER a 1.8 Moz GRE!

Meanwhile, the idea that Dorian is back is very good news and as he, you and others have said, whenever Seamonkey 1.0 is out (and probably Seamonkey 1.0.1, the way the bufix thing has been working out), is time enough for K-Meleon to really get serious about getting a complete and non-buggy version based on the 1.8 GRE.

Meanwhile, I have been very happy using cutting and pasting or all the other methods of gettin the 1.7.9 GRE patched in response to all of those Secunia and other security reports about problems with Mozilla.

N

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: guenter
Date: July 05, 2005 12:27PM

a dynamic browser with joined xpt is quite fast and easy to update - but xulrunner looks nice too - we need a thing that can be updated by any Dick, Tom... in Forum.

especially as Mozilla.org gives us fixes soon (unlike MS) which we can in turn use for updates - like other folks. Sea Monkey group and xul runner dev might too - but i am not sure.

and i do not want embarrasement like last years when we could not update and had long threads about very minor security problems.

At the moment: I deem problems not very serious as long as browser crashes cleanly. but i much prefer a situation when any interested user can update & regards

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: ndebord
Date: July 06, 2005 09:02PM

Guenter,

Fred has said it all. The latest 1.8xx nightlies are changed (for Seamonkey) enough that they won't work with K-Meleon. So we've reached the end of our rope without someone stepping up to work on a new version. I agree entirely, that I would not want to see K-Meleon embarassed by not being able to upgrade along with the rest of the Gecko community. I just wish I was a coder so I could do the job.

N

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: jsnj
Date: July 07, 2005 02:07AM

and i do not want embarrasement like last years when we could not update and had long threads about very minor security problems.

I agree entirely, that I would not want to see K-Meleon embarassed by not being able to upgrade along with the rest of the Gecko community


LOL...Just what is all the "embarrassment" about? Who personally felt embarrassed and whose pride is at stake here and why? Sure, it would be nice, though not essential, for nightly users to continue to have the option of getting KM nightlies, but "embarrassed"? Is there a race or competition going on that I'm unaware of in which the browsers slowest to update get made fun of and have to run home crying from embarrassment? :-)

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: ndebord
Date: July 07, 2005 08:15AM

jjsnj,

<<.Just what is all the "embarrassment" about? >>

Meleon is such a great browser that the prospect of not being able to get a new version out based on a major Gecko release is, how to say? painful. You'd be the first to acknowledge that the major weakness of K-Meleon is the lack of backup in the development department, no? It's not that I or perhaps others feel that we have to win a race, it is rather the understanding that there may be ZERO developer(s) around to do the heavy lifting whenever KM requires a major transplant in Gecko.

N

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: jsnj
Date: July 07, 2005 12:25PM

I was just amused and quibbling w/the use of the word "embarrassed"...which seemed a bit over-dramatic. I wasn't being very serious. Anyway, as far as KM's development, it's never been speedy and I don't ever expect it to be due to the lack of coders KM seems to have problems attracting. But IMO, there haven't been any really significant security or rendering advances in the Mozilla project to be all that concerned. There have been a few little security hole discoveries here and there that haven't really effected anyone and there always will be new holes discovered and patched. Such is life. But for most, they are insignificant, despite the alarm they seem to trigger in people. Of course it would be nice to have more coders working on the project. Who knows? It may happen one day.

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: guenter
Date: July 07, 2005 02:23PM

dear jsnj - i much respect Your work. and that You are here to talk and help.
& i hope You will not feel that i am unthankfull about all You did for me.

but... i am upset!

maybe Ulf, Andew, Al and You
should have published the way or at least one way to update GRE?

and You 4 should have published it at front porch.
and possibly a fool proof update that i can use

- since i am only a user that reads in user forum.
// = my humble opinion.

as it is: other people posted updates.

- and i said: me ? i felt embaressed in the past (what is wrong about that?).

whether i personally should feel so i do not know... maybe others should...
(i do not mean You)

besides ... maybe Europeans are too sensitive?...

... this is not my mother language....

so i do not know exactly what i am talking about....?

greetings

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: jsnj
Date: July 08, 2005 01:30AM

but... i am upset!

About what? That there haven't been updates? That's nothing new. That's always been KM's history. KM is a low priority for Ulf, the only coder we have. He doesn't use it, but has contributed alot to it. Andrew(who has been the main coordinator of new releases,etc...) hasn't been around for awhile. He tends to step back in when he feels KM is overdue an update, like he did for 0.9. I communicated to Ulf recently. He coded some new features a few months back but hasn't added them to CVS. If he finds the time he will, then we can test & play with them. But until then, surfing on M1.7.5 is hardly a liability IMO. I haven't heard one report of a user being ravaged by the new security "holes" found. BTW, "official" development will never be forum based. If you want your voice heard or to play a significant part in KM's development, you'll need to join the dev list. But I know you have "issues" w/the dev list too IIRC. For someone who seems to have an emotional investment in the project(getting embarrassed and upset), it makes sense to join and instigate discussion and direction. Otherwise you'll have to be content with forum based peripheral development.


maybe Ulf, Andew, Al and You
should have published the way or at least one way to update GRE?
and You 4 should have published it at front porch.
and possibly a fool proof update that i can use
- since i am only a user that reads in user forum.



Are you having problems updating? I thought you released some updated concoctions. Or are you attempting to speak for others?


besides ... maybe Europeans are too sensitive?...

I'm not sure what being European has to do with it. Last I checked, Ulf was European. ....Well come to think of it, he does sometimes seem moody, if that counts :-)

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: ndebord
Date: July 08, 2005 06:56AM

jsnj,

Having a "reluctant" developer is better than no developer, no argument there. But just perhaps it is time to advertise or have Ulf "audition" for help. An ad at MozillaZine comes to mind. I say this because, to my mind, K-Meleon has become a very proficient browser, particularly in the 1.7.5 GRE plus category. It has also gained more recognition from the trade press. The result of such success? Increased expectations on the part of the end users and everyone else!

N

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: guenter
Date: July 08, 2005 01:39PM

dear jsnj,
and i know that we have always had old GRE problem. and why...

i have no problem with updating - i learned the process last year.
But it is not me that should have done it

http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net/forum/read.php?f=1&i=24600&t=24489

... as You say the thing is not forum based.
So maybe You could have issued update
- since i read that You had an updated browser!

it is "beschämend " (since You find the English word a missnomen) to have an outdated GRE base for public download. No matter whether it is outright dangerous.

I will most likely not rejoin devs list!
people except You seemed very aloof.
I will be most likely content to stay here.
- no matter whether dev-ment is forum based.

European: read jans post in mentioned post. He is Dutch = also European.
we seem to think slightly differnt about some things.
greetings

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Re: Wechselbalg update?
Posted by: guenter
Date: July 08, 2005 11:08PM

@afterthought;
jsnj: do not get me wrong - i am not looking into the mouth of a gift horse -
when we had older versions - i felt embarassed that we did not have (security) updates.

now we have updates (We= Forum / & also You 3 official devs that use this browser
// even if Ulf does not use k-m)
and do not pass them on & do not publicse them to people that may want them.


p. s. i know that k-m has one of the best security records of all browsers
& often is more secure than Mozilla. & i also know that we are very individualistic.

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