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new default theme
Posted by: Sebastian
Date: June 04, 2004 04:25PM

who is so kind and makes a new default theme?

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Eyes-Only
Date: June 05, 2004 02:19AM

It is something that's been discussed a lot Sebastian. Question is: Do we use one of the existing themes which someone has made (like do a vote, one with most votes wins), or do we nominate someone to make a theme and stand by their theme as "the new look of K-Meleon" regardless of what they make? Both are very good ideas!

The problem is: How many people would really vote? And how could you tell if a person is being fair and only voting once? Who knows? It could be one person nominating himself, or his theme, and voting from different IP strings many times, yes? Or like me: I have my own email server. I could make 10,000 dummy accounts and flood the emailing votes. I'd like to see it all kept fair and honest. ;)

Actually, as a themer, I would prefer to disqualify myself and my themes from the running, and I have my reasons which are very personal.

Yet I DO agree! It is time to remove from KM the old-style IE theme I believe. Too many times I have seen the browser that I love ridiculed because of this old theme. This is a New Millennium. Maybe therefore someone should make a "New Mellennium" theme and make that default? Something fresh and new, unlike any browser out there today, so that when people install KM they are immediately drawn to us and go, "WOW! I have to keep this and use it!" And I think just a few more macros wouldn't add to the over-all bloat of the browser yet would greatly increase the user efficiency of the browser and bring it more into line with what people are accustomed to: Romanito's plugins, "Go" button by default, "Up Directory" by default---I use this a lot! Layer open/close, and maybe a way to call up the default email programme---which I think Al has altered to do instead of stating the specific default programme by pathway? This wouldn't cause bloat per se but would really go a long way towards what people are accustomed towards using.

Hmm...

À bientôt!

Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: guenter
Date: June 05, 2004 02:28AM

I disagree,
for tradition and the honor of those that started the project we should keep the ugly skin, like an old memorial! the only change - we should ship an aditionl skin along.

with apropriate info, where & how the skins are changed!
for the additional i dreams of a minimalistic (few resources using) like fast sjonnies
or old netscape by...
If old Netscape maybe as only -> because that is a memoriabilium too.

regards U 2

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: jsnj
Date: June 05, 2004 04:17AM

...and the honor of those that started the project

They aren't fans of the current default. It's just that none of them are graphic artists or themers, so they just chose the layout that was the most common at the time of conception, namely IE 5. Here's a couple old snippets from the dev list.

May I once more suggest that we start look for a new default skin? We
need to find an artistic user who wish to design a whole new look for
K-Meleon. Is it a good or a bad idea? and what toolbar and context menu
images should we ask for? Ideas? Thoughts?

Maybe I should give up this idea soon since there were not a single
comment on my last post in the topic.. Still.. I like to bug you smiling smiley


and...

Once we reached that far it is the time to call for a contest
and vote for a whole new default look.

I will object against any new look that is based on, or resembles too
much, any past or present browser"s default look (or one of their
alternative looks that is installed by default). It should, in my
opinion, be original art submitted by the orginal artist(s), but the
final word is, of course, up to Jeff and Andrew.. :-)

It would be great to also have a small tool that can connect to a
server, list the available skins, and download and install selected
new skins. Such a tool doesn"t have to be a plugin. It can be a
separate program written in C/C++, VB or Delphi.

We need both coders and artists for this..
Anyone willing/able to help?

--
Ulf


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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Al.
Date: June 05, 2004 05:10AM

There's an upside to this though, and that is with the current default it *makes* people want to switch to a better looking theme, of which there are now quite a few to choose from. If the default theme were as aesthetically pleasing on the eye as something like Qute for example, then a lot of the other themes would go unlooked.

Interesting the quotes you've provided there jsnj, as they really do reflect the sometimes apathetic attitude some have to doing something *different* with K-Meleon's development. At the moment it's even hard just generating interest on the devs list for the new version even, of which Ulf has more or less "postponed" now until Mozilla v1.8 comes out.

Still in the meantime it'll allow us more debates about issues such as the "default theme" etc. ;-)

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: ndebord
Date: June 05, 2004 08:41AM

The default theme is servicable, but an IE clone. There are a lot of spinoff themes now thanks to the work of many here. As noted, it would be nice to have a designer come along and come up with something original. I of course am biased toward Early Blue, the original Mozilla theme that was discarded by their developers and as such is fair game to my mind.

Nick

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: TexasFett
Date: June 12, 2004 02:23PM

The IE based theme we have now may look old, but its far better than most themes out there. All buttons are simple and easily recognizable (and not just because people are used to them from IE). MS did a really good job on the IE5 set of buttons. It does suck that we are using MS based buttons but from a usability standpoint we have a good set.

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Eyes-Only
Date: June 13, 2004 09:44AM

If you wish to keep the MS-look might I suggest a theme? (And don't do this to get on his "good side" and I hope he doesn't think so.) How about Al's "WhistlerXP"? Now I don't use that theme myself, I use an amended version of Rapido's "Crystal2" and I'm slowly working on a "Crystal" set that would probably be solely for my edification as I don't feel like going through the hassle of getting the "Okie".

But seriously stop and consider it: It keeps with the "tradition" of KM shipping with an "IE-like theme" while at the same time ships with something which 80% (approximately) of the people out there are accustomed to, right? Maybe Al if you just changed the bookmarks to resemble across the board whatever it is that Whistler uses? Folders? I don't know? I mean, that's entirely up to you. But I do think that people have to admit that's one gorgeous IE theme and it would really modernise the look, appeal and asthetic value of KM immensely.

Gets my vote anyway. Can we do that without running into trademark problems or what have you?

Just my 2½¢ worth. User mileage may vary. ;)

Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Al.
Date: June 13, 2004 10:36AM

But seriously stop and consider it: It keeps with the "tradition" of KM shipping with an "IE-like theme" while at the same time ships with something which 80% (approximately) of the people out there are accustomed to, right? Maybe Al if you just changed the bookmarks to resemble across the board whatever it is that Whistler uses? Folders? I don't know? I mean, that's entirely up to you. But I do think that people have to admit that's one gorgeous IE theme and it would really modernise the look, appeal and asthetic value of KM immensely.

And there I was thinking that nobody apart from ndebord liked my themes. ;-)

Seriously though, and funny you should mention WhistlerXP as about a week ago or so, after I had just finished off the Bonus Pack for Konqueror I had also just started on some ammendments and additions to the WhistlerXP theme, but then I shelved it at the last minute and haven't looked at it since. Don't ask me why as it's just something which happened.

As it stands I have updated the menu bitmap so the icons are more XP-ish, and then I might do something about the bookmarks, you know try something a little more original like you say. I do have another theme "planned" and have the necessary "ingredients" to complete it, but as I am prone to honouring requests I'll put it on hold for some time and finish off WhistlerXP, Bonus Pack and all.

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: guenter
Date: June 13, 2004 10:41AM

the original French starter of k-m used a theme. jsnj is naturally right when quoting someone that has done real much for us as a source/authoritaet.
(whatever that is in English // have Your own possitive guesses!).
if not that original k-m theme is used: my opinion is - use Mosaik (the first real browser) skin, or Eyes-Only Netscape modern or a resource saving (no ram) minimalistik theme.
best weekend wishes from hannover

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Firefox
Date: June 19, 2004 03:18AM

IE theme is something I don't like about K-Meleon. It's too ugly, plus maybe copytight infringements or something(although Microsoft would look rediculous suing a free organization for a theme)

I think a good theme is something that doesn't look pixelated(jaggies, such), but still simple, and looks good.

Firefox 0.9 recently switched to Winstripe(Windows version of Pinstripe) Before they had Qute, which had dull colors, 3D perspective(tilted icons), and very strange icons. One of them was a blue arrow wrapping arpund the page. Winstripe is 2D, semi-bright and simple.

By the way, is K-Meleon going to get a new theme or is this just wishful thinking?

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Al.
Date: June 19, 2004 05:53AM

By the way, is K-Meleon going to get a new theme or is this just wishful thinking?

Well it's age old "what to change it to?" question that falters each and every time the subject is bought up unfortunately. Even if people did "agree" on something different, then like anything there's always going to be people who don't like it, no matter which one is chosen.

The article below is a good example of the "reaction" to the latest Firefox theme change:
http://www.actsofvolition.com/archives/2004/june/newdefaulttheme

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: dimage
Date: June 21, 2004 04:44AM

The new look of Firefox is just a copy of the IE 5 in Mac, and of course it doesn't fit at all in Windows. Put whatever theme in K-meleon, but not a Mac-based one.

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Eyes-Only
Date: June 22, 2004 12:03AM

Hi Al!

Yes! By all means---I really would love to see the WhistlerXP that you have completed! And I was also serious when I stated that if there ever were a new build that it should have the WhistlerXP look which you've made as it would be keeping with a sort of "tradition" of making KM in that IE-style, see what I mean?

At first when I started I was okie with the "same old, same old". I figured that if people didn't like it they could change it. But I listen to people at MozillaZine and I see that first impressions really do matter! It's not so much that we're a minimalistic browser that gets to them---it's the look which sets the entire mood for them first! That's when they go onwards to having the negative reactions.

But if they had this modern look of the WhistlerXP I personally feel they'd be more inclined to say, "Hmm... this looks interesting! Now I wonder what I can do with it?" And then they have that positive frame of mind set up from whence to start building a browser that they like.

I just hope that my point is coming across here? I haven't been able to wake up today and I see it's going to be "one of those days for me" where I'm going to be walking around in a fog all day. *sigh*

Anyway Al, I hope that you see what I mean here---that I'd like to not only see the theme done for the theme page (and the service pack as well!), but I'd love to see it as the next default theme too. I strongly feel that this would make a gorgeous site greeting people once our browser opens up for the first time, and a truly satisfying experience for them.

Well, this is my 2½¢. User mileage may vary...

Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"
p/s: Al? Could you let me know when you have it done? You still have my email addy, right? Thanks! smiling smiley

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: ndebord
Date: June 22, 2004 03:42AM

Guenter,

I agree (sort of). Two themes, but like Mozilla does where you have a choice of classic or modern already there.

N

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Al.
Date: June 22, 2004 05:09AM

p/s: Al? Could you let me know when you have it done? You still have my email addy, right? Thanks! smiling smiley

Sure what are friends for. It may be a few more days before I have it *all* done, I otherwise have to balance my time out with work and relationships (you know the usual stuff) so stay tuned.

I might also do a smaller 16*16 version of the toolbar, but I'll wait and see how the rest of it goes in the meantime.

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Eyes-Only
Date: June 26, 2004 07:19AM

Oh Al! I finally had the time to download the "Early Blue" that you did there. Between answering a ton of email, watching my grandson loads, entertaining guests, being sicker than a dog, working on my KM pages (not done I might add), and a bunch of projects, I'd forgotten to download it to my growing collection.

I must say that I can definitely see why ndebord was soooo taken with this theme! I think if it weren't for the fact that I like all of my themes to agree with with my shell I'd be dang tempted to use that myself! And with that "update pack" you made! Brilliant idea! smiling smiley

And THANKS so much for the mention and high praise in the readme.txt! I really appreciate my friend. Don't deserve a word of it, but sure do appreciate it! smiling smiley You've made my day! Thanks again mate!

A glowing Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: DarkMasterMatt
Date: July 25, 2004 04:04AM

maybe they should just do what mozilla did and have a "classic" and "modern" skin come with the browser when you download it. So you can use either the old one or new one.

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Fast Sjony
Date: July 25, 2004 04:08AM

Good point ;-)))

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Eyes-Only
Date: July 26, 2004 05:51AM

If that's the case then once again I make the push for Al's WhistlerXP as the "Modern Theme" for KM as it's simply beautiful, is a true work of art, and remains with an IE interface which those coming over from that browser for the first time will be easy for them to use.

And there's an idea! "WhistlerXP" as a default theme, and a Mozilla styled theme as a secondary, so those familiar with Mozilla won't be lost either and can easily switch.

Interesting idea, no?

Well, my 2½¢. User mileage may vary.

Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Fast Sjony
Date: July 26, 2004 09:20AM

Altough it is great that there are a lot of themes available yet, most of them are not polished that way you can use them with another background.
I am using a blue-grey background because I like that (Windows-rainy day in combination with a selfmade-theme for BBLean) and because I can see very easy if themes have good polished icons.
In my opinion WhistlerXP is a copy of the Microsoft-IE theme, and I wouldn't make KM a copy of Bill's IE. Another point is that some icons do have the problem I just mentioned....

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: jsnj
Date: July 26, 2004 10:29AM

There's never gonna be a skin/theme that makes everyone happy but of all the available themes, the only one which fits all the conditions requested by the developers is Phoenity.

1. It's an original creation and isn't based on any specific OS or browser.

2. Icons are clean enough to work with all backgrounds(including no background). It also holds up well in 256 color mode unlike most of the others.

3. It isn't the default and AFAIK has never been the default of any other browser, yet is one of the most familiar and popular themes in all alternative browsers.

4. Its icons are easy to understand and don't require a text description beneath them.

5. It blends well with all Windows versions including XP, unlike the current IE5 skin which clashes terribly with XP and makes KM look old & outdated.

6. Getting permission from the author shouldn't be a problem since he provided the K-Meleon version on the themes page and he encourages others to distribute Phoenity with different backgrounds etc...

I don't think you can say that any of the other available themes meet ALL the above criteria, so any opposition to it would simply be based on personal taste. But it's hard to fathom that there'd be more opposition to Phoenity than to the current relic.

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Al.
Date: July 26, 2004 01:08PM

Whilst I'm honoured to a degree that Eyes-Only likes one of my theme ports, I tend to agree with jsnj on the basis that if any other theme were chosen for a default, then it would have to be not only original enough but also not a copy of another browser or OS's look and feel. It's true some of the themes which are now available for K-Meleon are pretty pleasing to the eye, however ultimately K-Meleon really needs to adopt a look of it's own.

Having said that I was going to say that if any other theme were considered, well hell the Firefox devs dumped Qute, so.... ;-)

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: jsnj
Date: July 26, 2004 02:21PM

The currently available Qute/Kute Icons are not even nearly clean enough to work on any other backgrounds and it's still too identified with FF. Getting FF's(or any browser's) seconds or hand-me-downs for KM's default isn't a good idea IMO and I presume that's why the developers (specifically Ulf) are against adopting other browsers present or former defaults. Phoenity has no particular browser leanings(though it was originally conceived for Mozilla) and we wouldn't have to hope and/or wait for someone to clean the icons which can be a painstakingly time consuming project.

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Al.
Date: July 27, 2004 05:00AM

I was only being half-serious when I mentioned Qute (you did notice the wink at the end). Phoenicity is a nice theme and as such a good candidate for the default theme.

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: ndebord
Date: July 30, 2004 05:49AM

Everyone,

Lots of very nice themes. We should have at least 3. Traditional (the IE clone), Original (Early Blue...the REAL first theme for Mozilla) and our own (Call it Modern to conform to the Gecko method of Classic/Modern or come up with something uniquely greenheader lizard!)

N

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: TopSecret
Date: August 06, 2004 09:57AM

Funny thing about the present theme. If you didn't use IE back in the 3.x days, the buttons are not self explaining. The tooltips are required reading to use stock KM.

If bloating and slowing can be avoided (key questions), a set of three to five built-in themes is a good thing. Otherwise, a minimalist theme is a good thing.

BTW, the current Firefox theme looks very much like earlier versions of the GNOME desktop in Linux. That's why I like it.

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: DU
Date: August 16, 2004 01:55PM


> Lots of very nice themes. We should have at least 3. Traditional (the IE clone),
> Original (Early Blue...the REAL first theme for Mozilla) and our own (Call it Modern > to conform to the Gecko method of Classic/Modern or come up with something
> uniquely greenheader lizard!)

I agree with Ndebord. We should not have to debate the question of new default
theme. It's obvious K-meleon needs available themes to choose from.

What I dislike the most in K-meleon is that I can not customize K-meleon as fast and conveniently as I can with Mozilla or Firefox. It's a non-sense that a faster (when surfing) browser overall is so slow, awkward to use (or long doc files to read) when trying to do simple things like, e.g., opening the javascript console.

DU

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: rjf
Date: August 17, 2004 12:02PM

I think a theme that's simple, clean, and modern would be nice.

I know it's not a full theme(now), but I like the "Galeon" skin. I guess that would be considered an "another browser" skin. I just like that "clean" look where all the buttons have the same exterior shape, but are still easily distinguishable from one other, such as having different colors.


Of the themes already in the wiki, I like "Kute". "Knoia Warm" is nice too.
(please no metallic)

Just an opinion.

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Re: new default theme
Posted by: Klaartje
Date: August 22, 2004 03:54PM

Oh yes, the Galeon skin. I love that, too! My ideal K-Meleon would be the Sebastian build with the Galeon skin.

Just another opinion...

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