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Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Sir Wolf
Date: April 05, 2003 04:43AM

I read on ZDNet yesterday that the next build of Mozilla will be built on Phoenix because of its smaller size/less bloat. How does this affect K-Meleon?

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: MonkeeSage
Date: April 05, 2003 05:16AM

I'm about to build K-M on top of CVS Phoenix and find out. smiling smiley


Shelumi`El
Jordan

S.D.G

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: asmpgmr
Date: April 05, 2003 09:54AM

MonkeeSage,

Huh ? Why would Phoenix be relevant to K-Meleon ?? K-Meleon only uses the Gecko and Necko DLLs from Mozilla. The UI stuff is native win32 whereas Mozilla and Phoenix use some form of xul. The change in Mozilla is mainly UI stuff to make it faster (and it really needs to be a lot faster). At least they're starting to realize that their dubious bloated portable UI madness sucks.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: MonkeeSage
Date: April 05, 2003 10:47AM

asmpgmr:

Check out what they say here: http://mozilla.org/roadmap.html

Anyhow, right now Phoenix seems to simply be the Mozilla base branch plus browser & toolkit (see: http://www.mozillazine.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8164 ). So I'm not really sure what they are planning on doing.


Shelumi`El
Jordan

S.D.G

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Stefan
Date: April 11, 2003 04:49AM

LOL, how unusual for asmpgmr to post some nonfactual drivel instead of reading up on the facts first.
How would it NOT be relevant for K-Mel that the core engine gets faster...

@Monk
>So I'm not really sure what they are planning on doing.

Well, they are just taking the next logical step on the road they have been traveling for quite a long while now by putting GRE to use and splitting the Moz behemoth into smaller sections. However I must admit that I didn't expect it to go this fast. Considering GRE was just put in in 1.3 I would have expected inertia to keep mozbloat around for at least 1.5-1.6. I'm pleasantly surpriced that they are killing it off already with 1.4 and that Minutaur/Thunderbird is so far along too.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: MonkeeSage
Date: April 11, 2003 05:27AM

Stefan:

>> I'm pleasantly surpriced that they are killing it off already with 1.4 and that Minutaur/Thunderbird is so far along too.

Me too, I've just never understood the seamonkey branch--I just know it builds (somehow)...I think mozilla is secretly enlisting the power of aliens to get it to all play together. Heh. ;)

I just built Minutaur the other day from CVS, and besides a few small caveats, it is great.


Shelumi`El
Jordan

S.D.G

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: asmpgmr
Date: April 11, 2003 06:30AM

StefanTroll -

Would you take your stupid troll ass and go crawl back under your rock. The only time you post here is to spout off crap about Phoenix. You don't have anything useful or meaningful to contribute here so just go the heck away dumbass.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Stefan
Date: April 11, 2003 09:13PM

> You don't have anything useful or meaningful to contribute here

And it's plain to see for everyone that you have lot's of intelligent, factual and relevant things to post as always ... tongue sticking out smiley

@Monk
>I just built Minutaur the other day from CVS, and besides a few small caveats, it is great.

Yeah, I've heard from a lot of places that it's already working really well, but I'm too chicken myself to dare risk my mails with alpha software. But with the amount of Dev attention and the Moz new roadmap I'm sure it will be ready for general use in notime.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: asmpgmr
Date: April 11, 2003 09:30PM

StefanTroll,

Look here - http://gratisdei.com/KM.htm

Now would you GET LOST you piece of crap dumbass - it's quite clear that you are a worthless troll and you have nothing to contribute to K-Meleon. If you like and want to use Phoenix then use it, nobody's stopping you but GO AWAY and stop bothering people here about it dumbass, you're not wanted here.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Stefan
Date: April 27, 2003 04:13AM

> Look here

Ok, I'll bite... what's your whole point with that post of yours?

I mean other then again show your lack of education and manners, becuse that is already a well know fact to everybody that has ever read any of your posts.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: asmpgmr
Date: April 27, 2003 05:32AM

StefanTroll

I'm actually making useful contributions to K-Meleon. You are just are stupid ass troll who only posts here whenever someone mentions phoenix. Clearly you have nothing even remotely useful to contribute or say in regards to K-Meleon so posting here. It should be obvious to even a stupid dimwit like yourself that on a K-Meleon forum the majority of people here are interested in K-Meleon, not phoenix. Don't you have anything better to do with your time than to be a stupid troll ? Go out and get some toys or something but do go away.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Andy Korvemaker
Date: April 29, 2003 10:12AM

C'mon, guys. Play nice :-)

Can we let the flame war end here?

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Stefan
Date: April 30, 2003 02:41AM

> I'm actually making useful contributions to K-Meleon.

Arrogance, namecalling, flaming, those are your main contributions to K-mel.

Your bad attitude and manners are if anything scaring away more users then anything you could possibly do would bring them in.

And if we take a look at that page you link to it should be clear even to you that the main contributor there is MonkeeSage.
Strangely enough, he and I are able to conduct a meaningfull discussion (in this thread as well as in other previous threads) without harassment, namecalling or telling the otherone to stop posting.

Perhaps you should sit back and really think about who REALLY is the troll around here?

@ Andy
> Can we let the flame war end here?

There is no war, just a confused little kid that thinks he has any right to tell anyone else what to do on a forum that isn't even his own. smiling smiley
He also seems to belive that the language & namecalling he uses towards others will gain him some kind of respect. One day he will hopefully grow up and realize his mistake.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: asmpgmr
Date: April 30, 2003 03:34AM

StefanTroll,

Listen you stupid bastard I did most of the coding for the updates on his and MonkeeSage will confirm that. If that isn't enough anyone who frequents these forums knows bloody well that I post a LOT of code updates. You are just a stupid jealous little dumbass troll. Your inane crap is quite tiring so unless you have anything useful to contribute here then SHUT UP AND GO AWAY !!! This is NOT a phoenix/firebird/whatever they're calling it this week forum so if you like using that browser then use it, nobody's trying to stop you but do stop posting your crap here. You're not accomplishing anything by constantly posting idiotic garbage. The only mistake is the one your parents made by having the likes of you.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Joseph Peterson
Date: April 30, 2003 06:57AM

Do these forums have moderators? Can't flame-war messages be deleted?

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Stefan
Date: April 30, 2003 06:51PM

Unfortunately there are no moderators that cares, otherwise people like asm would have been gone long ago.

He has been using the same offensive language towards not only me, but many many others, most notably a few of the Mozilla/Phoenix developers, ie the very people that has written thusands upon thousands of lines of code in the engine that K-mel uses.

I sometimes find it amazing that anybody around here even gives him the time a day anymore, becuse the damage he has been causing on K-Mel forums reputation will unfortunately tarnish also K-Mel as a whole.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: asmpgmr
Date: April 30, 2003 09:44PM

StefanTroll

Basically your problem is that you don't like the fact that I'm not a Mozilla or phoenix/firebird fan. TOO BAD. You're just like some stupid religious fanatic who gets upset because everyone doesn't share their viewpoint. All you can do is troll here waiting for me or someone else to say something that isn't supportive of Mozilla or phoenix/firebird. You ignore every other thread that doesn't have the potential to be unsupportive of either. Guess what, that's really foolish. If you like 'em then use 'em, I really couldn't care less what browser you use but you're not going to change my viewpoint so would stop it already. If you would stop attacking me just because you don't like my viewpoint then I definitely won't bother attacking you. So let this here and now.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Stefan
Date: May 01, 2003 05:54PM

> Basically your problem is that you don't like the fact that I'm not a Mozilla or phoenix/firebird fan.

There is a difference between not being a fan and being a rabiant anti anything else fanatic and also think that you somehow have the right to use any kind of insults and offensive language to anybody who is also not a K-Mel fanatic.

For the record I get along with a lot on K-mel users just fine (my mother eg), so this is not a problem on my end, but on your end asm.

Now just try to make at least 1 post that is not filled with namecalling and swearing. Can you do that?

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: asmpgmr
Date: May 01, 2003 08:56PM

StefanTroll

Why can't you just stop ? As I've said before I really don't care what browser you use but if you're a fan of another one then it's quite stupid to come here just to troll. If you don't like K-Meleon then that's fine, I really couldn't care less but then stop posting on a K-Meleon forum. Also stop trying to turn stuff around, when a dumbass like yourself is constantly bashing and implying that I had little or nothing to do with the updates then what the heck do you expect ?? What goes around comes around, if you attack me then I'm going to attack back. Now would you just drop it already.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: ndebord
Date: May 02, 2003 03:37AM

asmpgmr,

Although I've disagreed with you in the past, you have made important contributions to KM. However, intemperance is your weakness. The gratuitous insults only sully your own reputation, or in other words, flaming is best left to chatrooms, not here where serious work is being undertaken, often by you.

N

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: *pokity*
Date: May 02, 2003 04:36AM

I hardly ever post here but I like to keep up to date with whats going on around k-meleon and visit this forum quite a lot, and asmpgmr and stefans flame wars never fail to amaze me.. I just dont understand what you can find to get so worked up about when the subject matter's web browsers o_O honestly Im starting to think you're the same person and it's all some elaberate conspiracy against me in league with the pod people and the reverse vampires..
please, just try and be more constructive with your posting.

as to thoughts on mozilla using firebird, it's a pretty obvious move and I figured that was what phoenix was really in delevopment for when 0.1 was released. It should benifit everyone especially if this allows them to concentrate more on trimming down gecko and attacking those evil memory leaks.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: ol'joe
Date: May 06, 2003 07:01AM

Mostly a lurker, but because I have watched I have to side with
Asmpmgr . He is a regular Kmeleon contributor and user.

Guess what, stefan, Phoenix/Mozilla doesn't need any more boosterism.
It has all that it can handle ! :>
Every time it farts /. has the story. It has the biggest mindshare of any
browser in OpenSource. These guys are trying to code their own little
browser on Win32 using the win UI and the Gecko core.
So really quit blah blahing about Phoenix which I wish all the best.

My guess is that the reason the Mozilla world is starting to get a little
fluid is that Apple's decision to choose khmtl over zilla served as a well
needed kick in the ass.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: rmn
Date: May 10, 2003 11:20PM

>My guess is that the reason the Mozilla world is starting to get a little
>fluid is that Apple's decision to choose khmtl over zilla served as a well
>needed kick in the ass.

Exactly. As the losing side, Mozilla has lashed back several times, but it's not going to hide the fact that Gecko IS big (and probably bloated, too).

On the other side, now I see that KHTML's standards support is really not as complete as Gecko. The file that I use as startpage is displayed correctly in Galeon, but not in Konqueror.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Me
Date: May 13, 2003 05:12AM

Gecko has superior rendering and featureset compared to KHTML. KHTML has much, MUCH superior code quality.

Ideally, Gecko would get a near-overhaul. The rendering functions would just be ported over to a new architecture. This probably sounds like reinventing the wheel,but it's closer to taking a wheel made out of smooth natural rubber and making a new wheel with treads out of synthetic materials.

Many of Gecko's problems seem to come from the early insistence that the code could build on a huge number of different compilers. It's difficult enough just getting multiplatform builds, but to also try to get a myriad of compilers on top of that... it's insane. Fortunately, Mozilla now builds on Windows using GCC, so it looks like the developers are going to move to making GCC the offical compiler. This, in turn, will allow the ability to use standarized C++ elements such as the STL and assorted algorithms rather than the hacked and uglier than sin bits that it uses currently.

Out of curiosity, does K-Meleon build correctly with GCC? If not, one might think about getting it to do so as it really does seem Mozilla will pretty soon (like within the next three milestones) say 'Mozilla builds with GCC only. It may work with other compliers, but no guarentee.'

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: asmpgmr
Date: May 13, 2003 06:25AM

Gecko is supposedly the best rendering engine as far as standards support goes but it really needs code optimization. The others, Presto (Opera 7) and KHTML both have tighter and faster code but aren't quite as standards-compliant as Gecko. KHTML supposedly has a lot of potential though. Two things I would really like to see from the Mozilla camp - a serious concerted effort to cleanup and performance optimize Gecko which would benefit all Gecko browsers, and a real SDK with the needed header files and libraries which would allow K-Meleon or any Gecko browser to be built without having to build Mozilla first.

The official build of K-Meleon is built with M$VC 6 service pack 3 or higher. The Cygwin package which uses GCC theoretically should work, it's primarily a matter of having a compiler which supports the MFC stuff. I'm pretty sure the plugins can be built with GCC, I'm not sure about the main program though.

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: nolang
Date: May 27, 2003 09:24PM

Well---after reading this thread I will not be downloading K-Meleon.

A developers forum is NO place for a flame war, name calling, abusive language.
Disagreements---sure, in a CONSTRUCTIVE lets make it better dialog.

This was so immature nothing else needs to be said, execpt this.

When a forum or project concedes to rudiness and name calling based on the amount of "code" or "patches" one supplies, then this is not a place for people who are serious about their work.

Thanks
nolang

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: MonkeeSage
Date: May 27, 2003 09:56PM

nolang:

There is a difference between a forum where (anyone and everyone) can discuss development, and a forum where the software developers make representative claims about their software and interact with end users. AFAIK, not one of the K-Meleon devs has even posted to this thread or in any way indicated that it should be taken as some kind of a position statement. I'm not a dev, either, BTW, I'm just an end user myself.

In any case, your assessment of K-Meleon smacks of the genetic fallacy. Even granted that the K-Meleon devs were the meanest, nastiest, stupidist, et al., when it came to interpersonable skills--they could still create good software. And its free software, too, so there doesn't really seem to be any argument against at least trying it and then evaluating it on it's own (pragmatic) merit; but to evalute it on the merit of the personality traits of the developers is bad (logical) form.

I would recommend what Stefan did elsewhere--try out all the browsers you can, find the one that you like, use that one. smiling smiley


Shelumi`El
Jordan

S.D.G

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Andy Korvemaker
Date: May 30, 2003 10:53AM

On the other hand, "cold" logic doesn't make all decisions. We're not Vulcans ;-)

I can see nolang's point. Say company X produces product Y. Product Y is an amazing product. However, company X also engages in activity Z. I strongly disagree with activity Z, so I choose to not support companies that engage in activity Z. Product Y may be awesome, but my opposition to activity Z takes precedence.

To be perfectly honest, if this thread was my first experience with K-Meleon, I would not be very impressed, and I would seriously consider just moving on. Just because K-Meleon is free doesn't mean that we shouldn't be mindful of what we say here. Someone who is not familiar with the project would have no way of knowing that the people speaking were not main developers for the project.

nolang, I encourage you to try K-Meleon. It is quite good. It runs well on older machines. It is very customizable. It has many features that people here have come to really appreciate. If you still choose to go elsewhere, I recommend looking at Opera (http://www.opera.com/) and Mozilla Firebird (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firebird/). All three browsers are relatively small and fast, and each has its strengths and weaknesses.

Anyways, I'm not trying to pick a fight , just making conversation :-)

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: MonkeeSage
Date: May 30, 2003 02:19PM

Andy:

On the other hand, "cold" logic doesn't make all decisions. We're not Vulcans ;-)

True enough. Though, being an armchair philosopher, I can't help but smile when people are more self-conscious about the implications of their beliefs / statements--even if they aren't saying "live long and prosper" (yet). ;)


I can see nolang's point. Say company X produces product Y. Product Y is an amazing product. However, company X also engages in activity Z. I strongly disagree with activity Z, so I choose to not support companies that engage in activity Z. Product Y may be awesome, but my opposition to activity Z takes precedence.

I would agree with that line of reasoning. If there is an ethical obligation to consider (e.g., your commitment to ~Z), then such a criticism would not necessarily involve any fallacy of relevance -- the ~Z commitment, itself, determing the sphere of relevance in the way you have laid out (Y -> X, X -> Z, commitment to ~Z, ergo ~X, ergo ~Y).


Anyways, I'm not trying to pick a fight , just making conversation :-)

Understood. smiling smiley I hope I didn't come across as trying to start a fight either, as that was not my intention. I just don't want to see the value of K-Meleon (considered simply as software) demerited on account of anyone's actions / attitudes (including my own!).

If someone really feels that they would be violating proper ethic to support K-Meleon, then I wouldn't try to convince them otherwise -- but to imply that K-Meleon is not good sotware because the devs are not good -- seems rather shakey ground to say the least (by the same line of reasoning it could be said that the Ford Tarus is not a good car because Henry Ford was anti-semetic in his personal attitudes and dispositions).

Anyhow I'm prolly just rambling now, heh. Thanks for the insightful reply. smiling smiley


Shelumi`El
Jordan

S.D.G

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Re: Mozilla using Phoenix
Posted by: Andy Korvemaker
Date: June 08, 2003 09:43AM

MonkeySage:

I hope I didn't come across as trying to start a fight either

Not at all :-)

to imply that K-Meleon is not good software because the devs are not good -- seems rather shakey ground to say the least

Agreed. I've seen some amazing software/art/products/etc produced by some very "shady" types. I've also seen some crud produced by people I really respect.

andy

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