I won't comment on general flaming and bashing in this thread but obviously there is nobody here who does actual web-development work on daily basis. Well, I do and let me then put it this way - IE can not even cope with same amount of w3c stuff that KM can. I'd say that IE CSS (1&2) support is roughly 60%-70% of that of KM-s. Rest is either missing completely or buggy.

I mean, we're talking here about things that've been out for 4 (CSS2, 1998) to 8 (CSS1, 1996, revised 1999) years and still MS can't make latest IE to support at least the same amount as our favourite browser here does. That's rather pathetic. How about something as simple as position: fixed? It's been friggin' 4 years now. Also, have you ever seen the code MSHTML (ActiveX) component spits out? Heck, it's so broken that even IE itself chokes on it at times.

I think the most interesting about IE and the W3C standards is the fact that IE for MacOS does a lot better job at rendering those than IE for Windows. It shows that they were two totally different teams working on those projects, even on the core.

Anyway, I've finally decided to code all my web pages to look "good" on Gecko and be nearly OK on other browsers. (OK, I have to admit two things: "good looking pages" for me is the software engineer of "good looking pages", ie they should deliver quick and easy access to information and not use any frills such as Flash; and I don't do professional web design and my pages don't drive a lot of visits. But hey, my pages work!)

Harvey>There should be some mechanism to ban irritating trolls. This exists in all moderated groups...>

So Harvey,,you must be one of them liberials.
Well so if you have a forum you would only allow what who and when someone can post and if it don't suit you ,you would just not allow there post,,like the comunnist,, ??..well I be damn,,hiya hitler!

Hitler was a fascist not a communist. Communists believe that all people should be equal, that no one should have more wealth than another. Fascists believe that there should be two classes, rich and poor and that the poor should serve the rich. I don't believe that freedom of speech is mentioned in either political ideology.

>noodge
whatever,,I'm sure he got the idea,,I'm just not to good with words,,not very educated either..

The way a number of forum-type systems address this is to have a "Block this Person" button, that hides their posts unless the user unblocks him.

If I had one for ThatDude, I'd use it. Meanwhile, I'll just stop reading this thread and his drivel.

Rick, you are a cool breeze.

i'm using 0.6 as my default browser since november 2001, works great!

waiting for 0.7, good work so far :-)

well, mine wasn't. it worked for some time well, then it started to get slowlier every day. someday i was pi^H^Hnot satisfied anymore and moved to mozilla.

if .7 will be good enough, i will change back though.

Author: sven
Date: 07-18-02 01:43
wrote:
<
nobody here who does actual web-development work on daily basis. Well, I do and let me then put it this way - IE can not even cope with same amount of w3c stuff that KM can. I'd say that IE CSS (1&2) support is roughly 60%-70% of that of KM-s. Rest is either missing completely or buggy.

I mean, we're talking here about things that've been out for 4 (CSS2, 1998) to 8 (CSS1, 1996, revised 1999) years and still MS can't make latest IE to support at least the same amount as our favourite browser here does. That's rather pathetic. How about something as simple as position: fixed?
>

I disagree with your 60-70% figures. Except a few (maybe 4) property values of the display property, MSIE 6 in strict standards rendering mode support every property values of CSS1. A few of them might be quirky or buggy (like background-attachment), but that's it. Gecko-based browsers still have a lot of bugs on CSS1 properties.

Regarding CSS2, it is true that Gecko-based browsers have a clear edge over Gecko-based browsers but this edge is not as big as your post suggest. Position:fixed is an important property, that's true but that's not everything.
MSIE has been supporting the @font-face rule for embedded open type webfonts: NS 4 used to support portable dynamic fonts also. Gecko-based browsers do not support at all CSS2 @font-face rule and there are no plans right now to do so.

Garry

I was not speaking of CSS1, I was speaking of Gecko CSS support, which includes (naturally) portions of CSS2 too. 60-70% was rough number after doing Evil Test Suite (incl Wet Blanket) (http://www.bath.ac.uk/~py8ieh/internet/eviltests/home.html) and David Baron's (http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~dbaron/css/test/) test suite.

As for bugginess - there is *official* CSS1 buglist for Gecko (http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/bugspecs/REC-CSS1.html) and therefore we roughly know the number of bugs clearly stated as such, for IE there is no official bug list. That doesn't suprise anybody, of course. We only get feature lists on MSDN library but not bug lists.

position: fixed was just an example, take child selectors or adjacent sibling selectors and IE chokes as miserably on those. I don't think IE supports attribute selectors at all. Which, of course, is miserable since attribute selectors are *very* useful, especially for dynamically generated pages where you don't know which ID or TITLE or whatever your elements will have.

I'm not saying Gecko is perfect (clearly it's not) but there are no public browser engines out there which can claim better standard compatibility. Save perhaps Amaya, but it's more like proof-of-concept type thing.

Hitler and the Nazis were actually extremely anti-communist.

The problem is, people get used to having new versions of everything when they have a Via chipset, an nVidia graphics adapter, a Microsoft OS, the Microsoft Office suite and use IE to browse the web.
They feel like there's something wrong when no new beta update for their favorite [BIOS | 4in1 | Detonator | Windows Update | Service Pack | IE | Media Player | choose any other you like] is "leaked" in a week's time...
They surely don't know what a stable system is, or even what "stable" means, so please be kind to them and try to understand the reason why they complain.

And, please, in the name of "free speech", don't remove their posts when they say anything that could get *you* sued, because it's their right to do whatever they want when it's not their responsibility, ok ? (or else they might tell you that you are the one that has a problem)

Thank you.

>KC,are we all suppossed to reverse your speech,,if so what half of it?
Your not one of those reverse engineers are ya?

You know the answer, or you can guess it simply by using your brain.
I'm not a troll feeder.

Yawn : O

Oh, sorry. Thought something worthwhile was here since it was marked new.

"Communists believe that all people should be equal, that no one should have more wealth than another. Fascists believe that there should be two classes, rich and poor and that the poor should serve the rich."

This is neither the Communist or Fascist ideology.

Communism has NOTHING to do with equality. The central axiom of Communism is: To each according to his need, from each according to his ability.

For instance, a factory worker doesn't need much. A small aparment, bread, water. That's pretty much it. A scientist, however, would need a bit more. A concert musician would need a massive estate filled all manner of sumptous delights to fully access his creativity. Each person in the system is expected to give back according to his job. One of the huge problems with Communism is it's assumption that people are basically interchangable cogs... if you need more civil engineers, for instance, you can just declare the need for civil engineers and you'll have them despite people's talents or training.

Fascisim revolves around a government regulated monopolist state. In essence, the government gives monopoly power to a few corporations who produce everything for society. No business can operate without the express permission of the State. Fascisim's central tenent is, basically: Everything is forbidden unless expressly allowed.

Here's some info to add to the IE security holes discussion :

http://www.pivx.com/larholm/unpatched/

>Q-T,,Here's some info to add to the IE security holes discussion :

Thats good that there are places that can disclose the security holes in IE,,bet ya wish there was a place that would show ya all the security holes in all browsers,,sorry at this time there is no place at all to disclose all the true security holes that are in Kmeleon,,maybe if later on when or if K gets to be a known browser there will be a place to find all the security holes,,but for now you will have to just take a chance,,sorry..!

The 'other browser' - section of this very same site is just a click away......

Thatdude, as the site points out, some IE security holes are several months old.

Thatdude wrote:
"And as far as security hole ridden IE,,at least ya can get a security update as needed,,and not have to wait a year until the next release to get one.."[07-17-02 00:27]

When is the best moment to need a security update ? As soon as the first person on this planet finds out about the hole, of course. Not half a year later !

Erm, Didn't read all, but I was wondering, is it possible getting Kmeleon 0.7 beta? that is if ur not a developer/sleep with one/beta tester

another thing, on what version of mozilla is 0.7 gonna based on? cuz i'm using mozilla 1.1 beta atm, and it's really great :-)
nothing more for now, good bye

>Q-T
never mind,,it went over your head!

Sure.....

Anyhow, happy surfing to you !

hell, IE can't even display the CSS homepage properly: ]]http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/[/url]

"I think the most interesting about IE and the W3C standards is the fact that IE for MacOS does a lot better job at rendering those than IE for Windows. It shows that they were two totally different teams working on those projects, even on the core."

IE for Mac, from what i've heard anyways, WAS developed by a completely seperate team. I agree that they did a better job as far as compliance, but they left some rather nasty bugs that are a real bitch to code around. They effectively added yet another browser to consider when creating web content.

And you can't seem to close your anchor tags properly....

First time in a long while visiting the K-M forums, still no release and I see
the trolls are being well fed. Surely there is enough experience here to know
that the trolls must be left to starve so that they will die and leave only relevant
threads in their wake.
Ah well, back to my Crazy Browser whose simple, stable elegance I hope to
see in K-M 0.8 when it arrives circa the advent of widespread adoption of the
Lindows O/S. Let's hope the mad drummers are prepared to port.
Hallelujah!

I am little disappointed with the developers of K-Meleon. I am using KM 0.6.
Its OK. But we had Mozilla 1.0, Mozilla 1.1. And now Mozilla is fast enough to abandon KM. I liked it small and Handy but I would like something on an actual Gecko engine. Can't you at least distribute the actual beta of 0.7?
If not I think I am going to abandon KM and go back to Mozilla, where I have a fast Gecko engine this days!

As always you can get the link to the current developers build from the developers list archive. It can be found from the 'Get Involved' link above and to the right.

As stated before - KM and Mozilla are not competitors. Feel free to use browser that suits your needs best. No need to make "... or else!" statements