Development :  K-Meleon Forum
K-Meleon development related discussions. 
Good Bye
Posted by: ThatDude
Date: April 07, 2002 02:15AM

I have wasted enough time hanging around here waiting on the 07 release,,I gather that Kmeleon is not for everyone,,me anyway, and I am not coming here anymore to see whats going on.
I have determend that I will just stick with IE because by the time ya get these opensource type browsers and spend all your time peaking and tweaking and they still have problems,,why not just stick with the big IE,,its easier to get security updates and every thing seems to work mostly.I'm tired of all these want to be browsers.They are allways buggy and agrevating.They're just something for those people who like to waste time peaking and tweakin and still not end up with something that is compatiable.
Good Luck! with many hours.

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by:
Date: April 07, 2002 04:04AM

ok, that's fine. K-meleon is not for everyone. But why did you have to copy/paste this response in every thread here on the forum? Multiple posting is never a good thing. Once would be enough.

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: Al.
Date: April 07, 2002 07:00AM

You know, the dumb part about it is, he had to make repeated postings about he's had enough waiting, and is just going to stick with IE: most people when they lose interest in a program or whatever, just leave. Simple as that, no need for repeated postings about it.
I guess what "TheDude" is hoping is, by posting the same thing repeatedly, he'll get the developers attention, and then he's probably thinking that they'll go "Oh my god!!! The Dude is losing interest! We'd better hurry up the release of 0.7 especially just for him!!! We can't have The Dude go back to using IE, heaven forbid!" It's a very very poor psychological trick.
And I'm sure he'll keep an eye on the responses he gets to these postings too: heh TheDude ;-)

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: Julian
Date: April 07, 2002 06:27PM

"its easier to get security updates"

I prefer browsers that don't need security updates. I guess you're also one of the guys who considers bugs as features and fixes as addons. You probably also think that everything that has a 0.x as version No is more buggy in general. "Cuz 1.x or higher has to mean something!"

"They are allways buggy and agrevating."

KM 0.6 is one of the most stable browsers I've experienced in a while. Crashes once in a while but unlike IE that doesn't harm the performance of the OS itself (whereas the latter browser is capable of dragging the whole (9X) system into the void with an error)
But I see where you're coming from and the following can be recommended to the KM-developer team.

1) Please release 0.7 now, even if it's not finalized yet. Of course, officially it's titled 'KM 7.0'

2) After doing 1) release bugfixes, patches and whatnot every week so people think "Wow, they're really working on this."

3) Do not forget to implement backdoors and other leaks so KM will also become more popular among script kiddies. (Did I mention that ActiveX support is an absolute MUST?)

4) Why would you care about memory leaks? People simply should buy more RAM, it's not that expensive yet!

5) After doing 1), 2) and 3) make some minor upgrades and release KM 8.0.

6) Ignore those trolls who complain about security leaks. Ridiculous! It's safe, one simply has to deactivate 95% of the options. And stay off-line.

*bows*

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: Al.
Date: April 08, 2002 06:18AM

>2) After doing 1) release bugfixes, patches and whatnot every week so people >think "Wow, they're really working on this."

Heh, and just to prove this point, here is a website which highlights some, if not all of the security problems with the latest version of IE:
http://www.iexbeta.com/ie6.shtml
Seems if you go with IE, you'll forever be downloading security updates for this and that, new VM builds which patch security holes etc. etc.
Blah, talk about "Good Luck! with many hours." (sic)
:-)

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: Moggy
Date: April 08, 2002 02:23PM

I have to admit that I'm pretty close to giving up on K-Meleon as well, though for other reasons. I don't need constant updates, I don't want fancy widgets, but I am going nuts dealing with some of the odd functionality issues that hopefully will be addressed in the new version. If the developers would merely fix the old problems without overhauling the whole blasted thing, I'd be ecstatic. It's all I really want -- no new garbage that will create more problems, just repairs to what already is messed up.

I agree, K-Meleon is completely stable, nicely secure, and feature-rich. Since most of what I use the web for is text-based, it's also perfectly adequate for my needs. However, the wildly irritating problems I'm running into are also entirely text-based, and that makes using K-Meleon increasingly unpleasant as time goes on. Most of the problems are likely caused by poorly-coded webpages which IE can deal with but K-Meleon evidently can't; the difficulty is that while I can't control how everyone writes their pages, I can control whether I use a browser that lets me interact with the sites.

For example, I spend much of my time reading blogs run by Blogger, Movable Type, or alternative hand-coded scripting. In IE, these display very nicely; in K-Meleon, many of them show up with wildly poor formatting. On the lazily-coded blogs, I can add my comments to discussions easily if I'm running IE, but under K-Meleon the input boxes fail to wrap text, the cursor will leap to to the beginning of an entry if I accidentally reach the end, display oddly so I can't see what I've typed, and in some cases I can't access the input boxes at all. If I want to use K-Meleon to write entries in my own little blog, I have to literally write everything out in a text editor and do a cut-and-paste into the browser as otherwise problems with the dialog box make it almost impossible to write anything coherent at all. Like I said, it's not K-Meleon's fault that these sites are programmed in a way that screws its display abilities up, but the only current solution is to use IE.

I post this because I've championed non-MS net programs since they first came on the scene, refusing to use IE, Outlook, or any of their other buggy software and encouraging others to do the same -- it bothers me greatly that the only way for me to interact with many text-based sites is if I rely upon their stupid browser. Switching to IE after all of these years would feel like a huge defeat, especially after pestering others to use alternatives for so long. I'm not one of those "gee, I'm a bored barely literate sprog, gimme some newfangled stuff to entertain me or I'll go use another POS browser" sorts just whining because there's no prettified release popping out of the air every two weeks -- I'm a longtime dedicated user that just wants to be able to bleeping write in text boxes without tearing my hair out, and am frustrated that the eye-candy aspects of a new release are likely causing the huge delays in what would otherwise probably be a quick repair.

Again, I absolutely don't want to be driven to use IE, I don't want stupid eye-candy additions to K-Meleon... I just want to be able to enjoy lamely coded text sites in my favorite browser without getting a migraine from sheer frustration.

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: po
Date: April 08, 2002 03:33PM

hmmm. well, like you said, if the site ain't written right, there's not much k-meleon can do about it... there are people who would hate the idea of the devs spending time trying to make it handle 'IE pages' as much as you hate the idea of them adding 'eye-candy'. having said that, i don't think they're doing either... but i don't really know, other than from playing with the current beta. it seems like mostly bugfixes/improved functionality so far... and yes, even those annoying text input fields have been improved (although they still seem less than perfect to me, but i don't know how much of this is related to k-meleon code vs. mozilla code - i suspect mostly the latter). smiling smiley

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: sp
Date: April 08, 2002 07:10PM

well, it would already be a *big help* if they'd just upgrade k-meleon to current mozilla-standards. mozilla has come a long way in the meantime and improved its handling of poorly coded webpages, but k-meleon is *still* using the very old mozilla code.

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Code changes
Posted by: Andrew
Date: April 08, 2002 09:04PM

SP,

Agreed and that's what we are working on. The improvements in functionality in the plugins and browser are not what is delaying the release. It's adapting all of the code changes in the current version of Mozilla that is causing the holdup. Because of the nature of the Mozilla code, we have to do major rewrites of our code each time they do a release. This may not sound very difficult but because of the often-times poor documentation of the Mozilla browser changes, it takes a lot of time and testing to get things right.

Andrew

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: steelneck
Date: April 09, 2002 03:24AM

I see a lot of IE vs alternatives on this site, and yes IE is better to handle poorly coded sites but IE is also worse in dealing with good coded sites. You can take a look at my site, http://w1.970.telia.com/~u97007522/ No versions of IE will get it right on my site, IE hadles it very poorly and my site is 100% 4.01 validated, no errors in the code. It is all about the standardization of the web that MS wont follow.

I think that it is very important to follow the standards stipulated by W3C and not write kode that just works in one browser brand, why? Here in Sweden over 90% are browsing the web with Internet Explorer, so why write pages for the 10% minority?

Many webmasters thinks that way and makes pages for just IE and are skipping
the other browsers, i think it is horrible when big sites, big companys and institutions are doing so, it´s like making a door to the street that 10% of the population cant get past. When you ask them why, they say that it is so
difficult and costly to lay down time and effort to code for different browsers....

Code for different browsers???? Here they got it all wrong and this proves that Microsoft has gotten way to big, i dont like the idea of a big money making company that sets the rules and standards for the hole world (internet has no borders). It is a very bad thing if the competition is set out of play on an open market by a company that has gotten to big, and this can lead to politics and legislation and that i think is an even more terrible idea, and will most ceartainly be bad for MS.

It is not about koding for different browsers, just follow the open standard and it will work in every browser that supports the standard, thats just as easy as to code for a specific browser

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: old joe
Date: April 10, 2002 10:32AM

ThatDude,
The gist of your post is you are tired of waiting for Kmeleon ver .70
Fair enough, happy travels.
I can't tell you how to feel or to evaluate a situation.
For you I am sure it is the correct call.
For me a few years of reading numerous Linux software development mailing
lists has given me an understanding of how open source software projects
unfold.
I guess,I approach Kemelon with a different set of expectations.
I am not paying anything for Kmeleon, which the developers are doing
on their own time.
They don't owe me anything.
I am grateful for their efforts and their desire to "scratch their itch"
....and share the results with the rest of us.
I also repect them for eschewing rushing out excessively buggy code
in favour of releasing when it's ready.
Of course, I am used to Debian Linux who like Paul Mason will release
no code before it's time.
Finally, I doubt there is _any_ user who wants to get the next version
out sooner than the Kmeleon developers themselves.

Yeah, Kmeleon has some problems. So who cares?
I had a problem with the bookmarks so I haven't used Kmeleon for a while
but will give ver 7.0 a whirl ....when it's ready.
In the meantime there are other browsers to use. I always have at least
two going so I have a backup.

In the Debian realm they are fond of paraphrasing Yogi Berra
It's ready when it's ready.

When it comes to these kinds of endeavors, impatience is fine,
attitudes of entitlement are inappropriate.

Andrew et al, keep up the good work.
Looking forward to the next version of Kmeleon.

Gandalf said of the ring to Frodo,
Keep it secret.
Keep it safe.

I say of Kmeleon
Keep it lite.
Keep it fast.

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by:
Date: April 10, 2002 11:28PM

steelneck,
Hehe I saw the link to your page, and thought "Hey There is a fellow swede" (telia.com swedish company). And I clicked the link and saw the text "Stålis" at the topp. Guess what my name is Stålnacke also! Small world eh? smiling smiley

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: steelneck
Date: April 14, 2002 11:25PM

stålis2
He,he if you are the same as in the second post in this thread.... I have an uncle namned Björn S :-)
And now to something that makes this post to fit in this forum. I really would like to have the alert feature that asks me what to do when i klick on some kind of unknown file (save to disk/Open with..) especially the little checkbox allways open with this in the future. Will it be there in K-m 0.7?

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: rmn
Date: April 23, 2002 06:42PM

I don't have many problems using the current version of K-Meleon. It can use some bug-fixes, of course. But this is fine.

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: flightsimhq
Date: April 23, 2002 09:01PM

Why even both with ThatDude, just another stupid rude American that we are wise to. enuf

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: gargamonk
Date: April 26, 2002 12:06AM

<two points>
<1pt> Thatdude's purpose was probably to see how many people he could drag with him away from kmeleon. He think's "...hmm... i'm fed up with this, so rather than just leaving, i will hurt the profits of kmeleon by taking away some of their customers" Errors here lie in the facts that kmeleon doesn't have customers, only users, and doesn't make a profit, just a good browser
</1pt>
<2pt>Crappy IE Page Compatibility:
Kmeleon has it really tough trying to read and comprehend the pages that are built to IE crappovision. IE is purposefully made to respond poorly to standard pages, and well only to IE specialty pages. The reason behind this is big and green. Not K-meleon, but money. If IE only reads crap sites and only IE reads crap sites, than if IE is the dominant brower more people will write crap sites for it, and then more people will use IE to read such crap sites, beginning the entire circle anew. vicious cycle, eh? who do you think has more resources to influence said cycle, captain bill "the money" gates, or the helpful coders at k-meleon. sorry guys, im gonna have to go with billy on this one.
</2p>
<two points>
gargamonk
the everfan



P.S. wHEn wILL yOu GUys haVE mOziLLa .99 enABled v.7 dONe, if IT iSN't doNE fAST, I'm goIN IE.

P.P.S. gET frAMEs OR I qUIT

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: steelneck
Date: April 26, 2002 07:11AM

This is a game that Billy cant win, he can play it and make a lot of money but never win. Billy has to support standards or else he is going to loose. Read following article on Wired there are actually whole countries that are starting to more or less forbid the use of his software in goverment use (what is the next step...). Even politicians in Europe are starting to complain about lack of plattformindependent, global open standards not connected to his company and lack of healthy competition. I really dont like that politicians are starting to put their noses in the internet and making laws, I think also that this is Mr Billy G´s worst nightmare, cause he is the one that has the most to loose. It is not about money any more (well, for Billy it is), more and more often you hear words like freedom, independency, democracy and even national security when you read about his company on the net. Billys company is the first company that has grown to big globaly and more and more people are realizing it, and demands that somebody should do something about it and politicians love to prove them self usefull, but is that really what we want? This was not about K-m develop, sorry but i think it is important.

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: Mike
Date: April 26, 2002 01:13PM

I really like K-Meleon and the effort behind it. Heck, instead "ThatDude" complaining about it.....why not roll up your sleeves and help with it? Anyhow, my thanks to Team K-Meleon for puting out a very nice browser. I myself am going to remain patient as I believe in what they are accomplishing.

Sincerely,
Mike

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: Arual the Wyrd
Date: April 27, 2002 08:21AM

I'll stick with K-Meleon through thick and through thin
This darn silly lizzerd gets under my skinI
I've saved a nice place for its cute little loader
And I'll never - no, NEVER use Idiot Exploder

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: Daa
Date: April 27, 2002 05:35PM

Why not use the latest RC1 of Mozilla? It is the most stable browser I have ever seen.

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Re: Good Bye 0.7, hello 1.0!
Posted by: Tobben
Date: May 07, 2002 02:53PM

Personally I'm happy with KM 0.6. While I wouldn't mind some fixes here and there it is my browser of choice and will remain so even if 0.7 takes another month or three. 0.6 is probably the most stable browser I've ever used - both on Win2k, NT and Win95. And I've been using it a lot - several hours a day since it was released.

Hence my point: why not relabel "0.7" "1.0"?

Admittedly, 0.6 har a certain beta/RC-quality feel about it (bookmarks, certain problems in back/forward behaviour etc). If most of these problems are fixed and the next release will be based on Moz 1.0[rc?] why not admit that you're making a damned nice browser and label it 1.0?

Just my 2 cents/whatever
- Tobben

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: prowsej
Date: May 07, 2002 11:12PM

Kinda like what Netscape is doing with Netscape 7? Or did with Netscape 6 (not 5). Leave version numbers to the engineers, not the marketing people.

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: Andrew
Date: May 08, 2002 12:07AM

I think we'll probably stick to the 0.7 label. First, the release numbers for K-Meleon are based on improvements to K-Meleon, not the related Mozilla code. Also, I think it would be confusing for users who check their version number and see they are running 0.6 and suddenly see 1.0 out there. They are going to wonder what happened to everything in between.

Andrew

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: Al.
Date: May 08, 2002 07:47AM

What's in a version number anyway? Wouldn't matter if it was 0.65, 0.7 or whatever. At least the K-Meleon programmers are being more honest than some program developers.
Besides, I'm sure in years to come, when it is finally time to roll out K-Meleon version 1.0, then the K-M developers will do the RC1, RC2 thingy as well, to ensure that 1.0 will definately be worthy of a 1.0 release classification (similar to what they are doing with Mozilla 1.0).
Keep up the good work guys :-)

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: Count Blah
Date: June 02, 2002 09:02AM

I'd be using K-Meleon exclusively if it offered tabbed browsing. And yes, this appears to be a very sore point with specific people on these forums. Otherwise, I'd agree - KM is considerably better than anything else out there (with the exception of Mozilla, whose only winning aspect is tabbed browsing).

If any of you have used Galeon or Skipstone, you'll know how useful tabbed browsing can be. And for those users that don't like it - simply disable it.

The only troubling thing I saw was on the mozilla embedding page (I've been looking for a Galeon-like browser for Win32 for a while now) which described KM as being an IE clone. Kind of sad, isn't it?

If some kind soul (who can program plugins for KM, which I can't) would add tabbed browsing support, you've got a full-time convert. I will, however, keep checking back, perhaps even subscribe to the digest dev list.

bye bye now. Back to mozilla in the meantime.

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Re: Good Bye
Posted by: po
Date: June 02, 2002 09:26AM

> The only troubling thing I saw was on the mozilla embedding page
> (I've been looking for a Galeon-like browser for Win32 for a while now)
> which described KM as being an IE clone. Kind of sad, isn't it?

i'm starting to think maybe the charm of that approach has worn off, myself, in light of recent displays of incomprehension regarding the difference between the two.

is it still a worthwhile gimmick? i dunno...

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