Hi,

I suggest changing the installation routine to the following defaults:

[1] Only the zip for the portable version should come with a profile.ini in the main folder.
[2] The versions for local install should not even ask to put the profile in the main folder.
[3] Users who insist on the profile being stored in the main folder should have to take action to achieve this.
[4] This action should include going through a FAQ page dealing with profiles, writing access, and portability.
[5] These FAQs should be well structured and well readable. Comprehensiveness should not be an issue here.

Much should be done to avoid confronting new users with choices they do not care about, especially if they are not willing or able to stretch their minds and time budgets to grasp the consequences of these choices.

Be assured that any new user posting profile/writing access related questions here stands for, I guess, 100 - 400 other ones who just quit, try other browers, or revert to what they used before.

I volunteer to start a new thread to make a first version of those FAQs.

Cheers
SoerenB


Back again ...

I'm not in accord with you for profile location. I just think of a warning message when unchecking the option.

A+

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Mozilla/5.0 (x11; U; Linux x86_64; fr-FR; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Ubuntu/12.04 K-Meleon/76.0

---

Web: http://jujuland.pagesperso-orange.fr/
Mail : alain [dot] aupeix [at] wanadoo [dot] fr

---

Ubuntu 12.04 - Gramps 3.4.9 - Harbour 3.2.0 - Hwgui 2.20-3 - K-Meleon 76.0 rc

---

Quote
SoerenB
4 This action should include going through a FAQ page dealing with profiles, writing access, and portability.
5 These FAQs should be well structured and well readable. Comprehensiveness should not be an issue here.

Oh yes, though perhaps not quite a page, but certainly more info than today, so that users are able to get the version they really want. Reminds me of that guy recently who had checked "multi-user" because he thought this would mean, he could use KM with the same settings from all his user accounts. One KM for all users.... Didn't work, oops. Or was it the other way around? Can't remember for sure right now, but at any rate he had interpreted it exactly the opposite way of what was meant. Or all the countless people who clicked "single-user", without any clue that this would create them a read-only profile on Vista etc., if they install it into the default program folder, not somewhere outside.

Quote
SoerenB
Be assured that any new user posting profile/writing access related questions here stands for, I guess, 100 - 400 other ones who just quit, try other browers, or revert to what they used before.

Sad but certainly true Seeing that every single day KM has an average download rate of some 2000 downloads, it's surprising that nearly no one of them ever posts in the forum, although lots of them probably create a read-only profile, and most people don't use the forum search function. Better not know how many drop it again right away :-(



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2010 05:49PM by siria.

I think that is needed a better name than "Multiprofile" in the installer option and a more detailed explanation about this option.
The name for the option could be more descriptive like for example: "Put KM profile in your Windows user folder" or inverted "Locate KM profiles in K-Meleon folder".

The user must read the detailed of the options and not press Acept, Next ,Next, Finish, like is usual in Windows installations.

K-Meleon in Spanish



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2010 09:26PM by desga2.

I 100% agree with Desga2 about the convenience of rewrite that entry of the setup to make it easier to understand (I don't like the idea of a warning pop up message). I think his suggestion about reversing and calling it "Locate K-Meleon profiles in K-Meleon folder" is a very good idea.

It could be even better to say something as:

Location of K-Meleon user profiles:

[ ] Windows Doccuments and settings folder.
[ ] K-Meleon\Profiles.

And let the user choose only one option.

I think to add a screen to explain the risks the user take using K-Meleon folder as profile location if running under Vista or Seven, and the possibility to go back to change it if needed.

A+

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Mozilla/5.0 (x11; U; Linux x86_64; fr-FR; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Ubuntu/12.04 K-Meleon/76.0

---

Web: http://jujuland.pagesperso-orange.fr/
Mail : alain [dot] aupeix [at] wanadoo [dot] fr

---

Ubuntu 12.04 - Gramps 3.4.9 - Harbour 3.2.0 - Hwgui 2.20-3 - K-Meleon 76.0 rc

---

Quote
siria
Sad but certainly true Seeing that every single day KM has an average download rate of some 2000 downloads, it's surprising that nearly no one of them ever posts in the forum, ...
Better not know how many drop it again right away :-(

The vast majority. KM doesn't make an exception. It happens to all browsers in the ballot and there is little to do about it.

Nevertheless SoerenB has a valid point.

However I tend to agree with JujuLand and desga2 by adding a more intuitive warning message like:

KM will store its settings in Windows documents and settings folder [Recommended]
KM will store its settings in its own directory [Not recommended, for advanced users only]

Hi, desga,

I see your point:

Quote
The user must read the detailed of the options and not press Acept, Next ,Next, Finish, like is usual in Windows installations.

but:
- there is no "must" for a new user - if he or she doesn't feel like complying, they are no new users because they go away.
Do we want that to happen more often than we could avoid?

@ all:

my version of the two RadioButtons:

---

[x] I just want to install & browse, for the time being.
[..] I want to know more about custom Installation Places and Portability.
(These options can be accessed via {....MenuEntry...} from inside K-Meleon at any time later)

---

Of course, the FAQ would have a button: "I know what I'm doing, so let's get on with it"
No one would be hindered to put their installations wherever they want.
No choice would be hidden from the user.
But:
Noone would be forced to choose if they do not have their reasons for choices.

Cheers
SoerenB


Back again ...

Is is possible that KM could check to see if Write authority is availble for the profile on the first startup? If so then an about:profile could point to a wiki page explaining problem to the user.

Quote
Yogi

Quote
siria
Sad but certainly true Seeing that every single day KM has an average download rate of some 2000 downloads, it's surprising that nearly no one of them ever posts in the forum, ...
Better not know how many drop it again right away :-(

The vast majority. KM doesn't make an exception. It happens to all browsers in the ballot and there is little to do about it.

Nevertheless SoerenB has a valid point.

However I tend to agree with JujuLand and desga2 by adding a more intuitive warning message like:....

Amend suggested text.

KM will store its settings in Windows documents and settings folder [Recommended default location]

KM will store its settings portable in its own directory [Recommended for portable/USB use and Windows 9.x only.]

With a caption change maybe:

Default Location NT/XP-Win7 (instead of the current multi user reference). Else: NT/XP to Windows7

And the other:

Portable and Windows 9.x


BTW. K-Meleon has a portable option by dafault.
So alain: Brag about it in setup, SVP.

Maybe change default compiler option to: ac_add_options --with-user-appdir=""

If apdir has no string - only K-Meleon.exe will create an appdir.
So no empty appdir will be created by portables when not needed.

p.s. Maybe normal instead of default? Question to the English!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2010 12:28PM by guenter.

Guenter,

The only problem I have with that description is that users will think that the profile.ini version (or a well-behaved app that keeps everything in its own folder) is only good for W9x.

N



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2010 02:12PM by ndebord.

Quote
ndebord
Guenter,

The only problem I have with that description is that users will think that the profile.ini version (or a well-behaved app that keeps everything in its own folder) is only good for W9x.

PPL that know profile.ini - will know more than alain can text into setup.

My idea is: we want that average users use the default best suited for their system (NT or 98 based) and purpose (stationary or portable). So the text should guide them to do it that way. We do not want FAQs & much forum support.

For all stationary installs U are advised to select...

For all USB/Portable and Win9x individual logon installs U are advised to select...

PPL that know more will try to override default settings.
Warn them or leave it.

Maybe You as English speaker and tech-pc writer have also suggestions for a short text. While I am sure that alain & I might get the message across in French or German respectively - (I do not comment about alain's) I not so sure about my English competence.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2010 10:46PM by guenter.

I have made a modification:

-If the location of profile and OS is Vista or Seven => warning message
-otherwise, no message

A+

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Mozilla/5.0 (x11; U; Linux x86_64; fr-FR; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Ubuntu/12.04 K-Meleon/76.0

---

Web: http://jujuland.pagesperso-orange.fr/
Mail : alain [dot] aupeix [at] wanadoo [dot] fr

---

Ubuntu 12.04 - Gramps 3.4.9 - Harbour 3.2.0 - Hwgui 2.20-3 - K-Meleon 76.0 rc

---

And haven't you changed a bit the redaction of the setup option, to make it clearer?

@ alain, Unless they works as admin - XP/win2000 users have the same need to use current "multi" or manual granting rights. Maybe wait for en-US native comments?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2010 10:52PM by guenter.

What would be the effect if people install in another directory than the default programs...? Only read that in Vista/7 that one is extra "protected", just like the "windows" folder, but no idea about XP. Perhaps an alternative for portable installs? Just a thought, am rather clueless about such stuff really :cool:

Since Win2000 all NT based systems have no default writing rights in programs.
If You are not using systems as admin Your changes do not stick. K-m cannot write.
Unless You You grant rights manually.

That is why K-Meleon 1.o changed default location of profiles.

p.s. Iu sed only 9x before Win2000 - so I do not know about NT 4. and earlier -
only remember from this forum that PPL that wanted to set up 0.9 and earlier with profiles centralized had problems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2010 11:29PM by guenter.

Quote
guenter
@ alain, Unless they works as admin - XP/win2000 users have the same need to use current "multi" or manual granting rights. Maybe wait for en-US native comments?

I'm not convainced, but it's not hard to move the limit, just a number to change.

I'm thinking to the text to put, and send it you for purpose when ready.

A+

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Mozilla/5.0 (x11; U; Linux x86_64; fr-FR; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Ubuntu/12.04 K-Meleon/76.0

---

Web: http://jujuland.pagesperso-orange.fr/
Mail : alain [dot] aupeix [at] wanadoo [dot] fr

---

Ubuntu 12.04 - Gramps 3.4.9 - Harbour 3.2.0 - Hwgui 2.20-3 - K-Meleon 76.0 rc

---

Quote
siria
Sad but certainly true sad smiley Seeing that every single day KM has an average download rate of some 2000 downloads, it's surprising that nearly no one of them ever posts in the forum, although lots of them probably create a read-only profile, and most people don't use the forum search function. Better not know how many drop it again right away :-(

What if there was a way a user could know if they did not have write authority to their profile? I have put together a small set of files which should alert a user. It is by no means finished. Someone with more knowledge than I needs to complete the htm page. There also needs to be a page in the wiki with information for the user. I have just done this float the idea to forum members/developers.

The premiss of my system is that if the user can write an ini file to the profile, they can write to their profile.

The files are in 7z file at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1522294/Priviledge.7z

Hi, all,

just trying to help focusing goals clearer: does the vast majority here agree that new users should have at least a basic understanding of what a file, a folder, and a profile are?

Cheers
SoerenB


Back again ...

@ SoerenB

If they are using a computer, one would hope they would have that knowledge. However, I would not bet my lunch money that they all do.

As for the files in my previous post, I did not mean for new users to have to install them. If they were in KM already, by the developers, then a user would get a warning if they did not have write authority to their profile. If the htm file that I included and any links it might contain could provide an explanation to the user of how to correct the problem of write authority, We might get more users to keep using KM.

Quote
SoerenB
Hi, all,

just trying to help focusing goals clearer: does the vast majority here agree that new users should have at least a basic understanding of what a file, a folder, and a profile are?

Whatever the vast majority here would agree on, after being emphatically warned twice, there is no need for any basic understanding of what a file, a folder, and a profile are.

Keep it simple but effective.
1. K-M's install package already has the "Multi-user Profiles" option checked by default.
One single word "Recommended!" should be enough to make the clueless user think twice before fiddling with this option.
2. "Uncheck this option to store K-Meleon profiles in the K-Meleon folder instead of the application data folder"
Not recommended, for advanced users only! should be enough as a second warning.
Feel free to ammend the warnings. Essential, keep them simple and effective.

Lots of GREAT suggestions!! And certainly direly needed. Also an automatic check to see if user has write access, and some instructions popping up if he has not.

One thought though, I'm someone who always needs explanations if something is forbidden for no obvious reason, to understand better what is happening and stay in control, to be sure I make the choice that really is best in that individual case. Don't want to be treated like a stupid kid that gets slapped on the fingers and doesnt even get an explanation. So if there is to be such a warning about "NOT recommended, own risk, advanced users only", that certainly makes sense, but *please* don't make it look like the computer might explode or get destroyed be attackers or just plain the OS might not work any more, or all data get lost, if one chooses that option! It should become clear that this is just as safe as the other option, even allows to have a portable version, with the only "danger" that crappy VISTA and WIN7 will refuse you any writing rights *GRRR* But works perfectly fine in XP and other systems, that after all are still perhaps half of all computers.

Man, we could really use a specialist on vista/win7 here to post some how-to tricks - if they exist!! :-[ Really just about unusable those systems, unless one deactivates that whole UAC crap completely, and additionally always surfs as admins with full rights - and full dangers!! Really I'm surfing since over ten years as admin and without any user rights system (though with lots of caution and js mostly disabled, let alone other gimmicks), but that is on trusty old win98! Wouldn't dare for one hour get online this way with vista or 7 :-(( Can't one get any "damages for pain and suffering" from MS, and for just plain unusability (!!!) without passing through a 100h-windows-school??

Siria,

I never, ever enabled guest rights on my XP PRO SP3 Thinkpad laptop.

Just administrator, but then I never, ever browse without using dropmyrights.

C:\DropMyRights\DropMyRights.exe "C:\Program Files\K-MELEON\k-meleon.exe" N

N

alain, there's an interesting idea i found in a telly browser called kylo. like kmeleon it's gecko based(settings in profiles) and like kmeleon it uses nsis

on installation, they also offer the option of single or multi.. however depending on the installation type..the direct directory changes

choose single user:

the default installation path becomes in %appdata%


if regular(multi install) the path is the regular %programfiles%




this way it ensures that if the user selects single user, it installs the entire program in appdata and this will make it run normally on systems with limited rights like vista, seven etc

the user of course can change the path and might select a path with limited rights that can cause problems but at leats this way, the default installation will be in a folder where kmeleon will be able to write settings..if the user changes the directory..then that's their responsibility..most novices do not change path and use the default one so this will be a good solution, provided with the regular warnings..it's foolproof

disrupted,

Excellent find and a good idea for KM 1.6 and the new world of Vista and Windows 7.

(sticking with XP until it drops dead of old age though)

N

@ disrupted

Excellent find!

Yannis,

It a little the same way used by wine not to have problems with rights, but for me, it's a bad solution. You must then do as installs as users.

It's the same reason why I don't like that extensions are installed in user profile for Mozilla products.

You can manually browse and change the folder to a user place without problem, and it gives the same feature, but we must not make it the way by default.

For now, and I think having finished, when choosing K-Meleon root folder, I display a warning message to give the reason why it would be better not to choose this folder (and this just under XP, Seven, Vista, w2000 and w2003).

The user can then continue or go back to change the location. But the user can bypass the warning message, and can also always choose another folder for install.

I joined the screenshot.

A+

---

Mozilla/5.0 (x11; U; Linux x86_64; fr-FR; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Ubuntu/12.04 K-Meleon/76.0

---

Web: http://jujuland.pagesperso-orange.fr/
Mail : alain [dot] aupeix [at] wanadoo [dot] fr

---

Ubuntu 12.04 - Gramps 3.4.9 - Harbour 3.2.0 - Hwgui 2.20-3 - K-Meleon 76.0 rc

---

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2010 06:38PM by JujuLand.

oh ok, i understand

here's another idea.. not sure if it will work out, using setnamesecurityinfo like used in msi installers; would it possible to grant permission to the kmeleon install folder in case the user selects single profile..or even in any case, not just whilst installing but granting full rights to the km folder permanently.

i don't know if it's possible in nsis but msi has that option

i found this plugin for nsis: accesscontrol.h using setnamesecurityinfo. don't know if it can work in giving full permissions to the install folder after installing

http://kmext.sourceforge.net/tests/AccessControl.c

Können die Deutschen in diesem Thread mal gucken, ob wir es so haben wollen.
Ich möchte gerne, dass die Leut' beim Markierten merken, was für 9.x und Portable ist, dass der Rest bei NT basierten besser funzt.

Es soll selbsterklärend sein - wenn 's geht.

!ifdef ULANG
  !undef ULANG
!endif

!define ULANG ${LANG_GERMAN}

LangString INST_Welcome                ULANG "${NAME} ${VERSION} Installationsassistent"
LangString MUI_WELCOMEPAGE_TEXT        ULANG "Dieser Assistent wird Sie durch die Installation von ${PRODUCT_BUILD} begleiten.\n\nEs wird empfohlen vor der Installation alle anderen Programme zu schließen, damit bestimmte Systemdateien ohne Neustart ersetzt werden können.\n\nKlicken Sie auf Weiter, um fortzufahren.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\t\t\t\t${NAME} Setup v. ${SETUP_VERSION}"
LangString INST_Caption            ULANG "${PRODUCT_BUILD} Installation"

LangString BAD_OS                  ULANG "Bedaure, aber ${NAME} ${VERSION} läuft auf Ihrer Windows Version nicht.$\n$\nSetup trotzdem fortsetzen?"
LangString MSG_ERR_DOWN            ULANG "Ein Fehler ist während des Herunterladens der MS Bibliotheken ${VcreName} aufgetreten,$\nDer Setup wird abgebrochen."
LangString MSG_ERR_INST            ULANG "Ein Fehler ist während der Installation der MS Bibliotheken ${VcreName} aufgetreten,$\nDer Setup wird abgebrochen."

LangString WARN_ProfileRoot1    ULANG "Warnung : wegen der Sicherheitseinstellungen Ihres jetzigen Betriebssystems,$\n wird Ihnen empfohlen, für die K-Meleon-Profile das $\n Nutzer-Verzeichnis auszuwählen (Voreinstellung).$\n"
LangString WARN_ProfileRoot2    ULANG "Die Erstellung von Profilen im Verzeichnis K-Meleon kann$\ndie Ausführung von K-Meleon stören, Absturzgefahr.$\n"
LangString WARN_ProfileRoot3    ULANG "Bitte die Voreinstellung wählen, wenn Sie nicht ganz genau wissen, wie sich eine andere Auswahl auswirkt$\n(Klicken Sie 'Zurück', damit Sie diese Nachricht schließen und zur Auswahl zurück gelangen).$\n"
LangString WARN_ProfileRoot4    ULANG "=> Dies betrifft speziell Vista und Window 7, und kann$\n bei anderen Versionen: XP, Win2000 oder NT auftreten.$\n"
LangString WARN_ProfileRoot5    ULANG "=> Kein Problem bei Win9x, Windows Millennium oder externen Speichermediien (z.B. auf USB-Stick).$\n"
LangString WARN_ProfileRoot6    ULANG "=> Kein besonderes Problem unter Linux, im wahrscheinlichen Fall,$\n  dass K-Meleon in 'C:\Program Files' oder 'C:\Programme' (Standard) ist.$\n"

LangString DESC_SecMain            ULANG "Von ${NAME} benötigte Dateien installieren."
LangString DESC_SecAllUser         ULANG "${NAME} für alle Benutzerkonten installieren. Sie benötigen Administratorrechte."
LangString DESC_SecBookmarks        ULANG "Wählen Sie aus, welche Arten von Lesezeichen ${NAME} standardmäßig unterstützen soll."
LangString DESC_SecNetscapeBookmarks    ULANG "Unterstützung für Netscape-kompatible Lesezeichen aktivieren."
LangString DESC_SecIEFavorites         ULANG "Unterstützung für Internet-Explorer-kompatible Favoriten aktivieren."
LangString DESC_SecOperaHotlist        ULANG "Unterstützung für Opera-kompatible Lesezeichen (Hotlist) aktivieren."
LangString DESC_SecAssoc               ULANG "${NAME} als Standard-Browser setzen. Sie benötigen Administratorrechte."
LangString DESC_SecShortcuts           ULANG "Wählen Sie aus, welche Verknüpfungen für Sie erstellt werden sollen."
LangString DESC_SecDesktop             ULANG "Eine Verknüpfung auf dem Desktop erstellen."
LangString DESC_SecStartMenu           ULANG "Einen Ordner mit Verknüpfungen im Startmenü erstellen."
LangString DESC_SecQuickLaunch         ULANG "Eine Verknüpfung in der Schnellstartleiste erstellen."
LangString DESC_SecTools               ULANG "Wählen Sie aus, welche Extras Sie installieren möchten."
LangString DESC_SecLoader              ULANG "Den ${NAME} Loader installieren, um den Programmstart zu beschleunigen."
LangString DESC_SecProfileUser        ULANG "Diese Option auswählen, damit die ${NAME}Profile ins Verzeichnis für Anwendungsdaten kommen."
LangString DESC_SecProfileRoot        ULANG "Diese Option auswählen, damit die ${NAME}Profile in das ${NAME} Verzeichnis kommen."

LangString UN_confirm                  ULANG "Dieser Vorgang entfernt ${PRODUCT_BUILD} von Ihrem Computer. Klicken Sie auf Deinstallieren, um die Deinstallation zu starten."
LangString UN_RemoveProfile            ULANG "Möchten Sie die Benutzerprofile entfernen?$\n$\nDas Benutzerprofil enthält Ihre persönlichen Einstellungen, Lesezeichen und den Verlauf, und befindet sich in "
LangString UN_everything               ULANG "Es scheinen noch mehr Dateien im Installationsverzeichnis übrig zu sein. Möchten Sie alles entfernen?$\n$\n(Es handelt sich sehr wahrscheinlich um installierte Plug-ins, Skins oder andere herunter geladene Dateien)"
LangString UN_Title                    ULANG "${PRODUCT_BUILD} (nur entfernen)"

LangString INIT_KmeleonRunning         ULANG "${NAME} oder der Loader scheint gerade zu laufen.$\r$\nDas Programm muss geschlossen werden, bevor Sie mit der Installation von ${NAME} ${VERSION} fortfahren können.$\r$\n$\r$\nKlicken Sie OK, um das Programm jetzt zu beenden, oder Abbrechen, um die Installation abzubrechen."
LangString INST_AlreadyInstalled       ULANG "In ''$INSTDIR'' wurde eine frühere Installation von ${NAME} aufgespürt!$\nWollen Sie ${NAME} wirklich in dieses Verzeichnis installieren?"
LangString INST_Quit                   ULANG "Wollen Sie die Installation von ${PRODUCT_BUILD} wirklich abbrechen?"

LangString SECT_Loader                 ULANG "${NAME} Loader"
LangString SECT_AllUser                ULANG "Für alle Benutzer installieren"
LangString SECT_Bookmarks              ULANG "Unterstützung für Lesezeichen"
LangString SECT_IEFavorites            ULANG "Internet Explorer Favoriten"
LangString SECT_NSBookmarks            ULANG "Netscape Lesezeichen"
LangString SECT_Hotlist                ULANG "Opera Hotlist"
LangString SECT_DefaultBrowser         ULANG "${NAME} als Standard-Browser setzen"

LangString SECT_CreateShortcut        ULANG "Verknüpfungen für ${NAME} erstellen"
LangString SECT_WSShortcut            ULANG "Desktop-Verknüpfung"
LangString SECT_SMShortcut            ULANG "Startmenüverknüpfungen"
LangString SECT_QLShortcut            ULANG "Schnellstartverknüpfung"
LangString SECT_Tools                 ULANG "Verschiedene Extras für ${NAME}"
LangString SECT_ProfileUser          ULANG "Profile im Benutzer Verzeichnis (Standard)"
LangString SECT_ProfileRoot          ULANG "Profile im ${NAME} Verzeichnis"