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K-Meleoff
Posted by: Carson
Date: November 15, 2006 09:22PM

Quote
ra
Well, I'd like to have an off-topic forum for all such things. If there is one off-topic thread it can easily be ignored, but if there are many reading the forum becomes a pain again if someone isn't interested in gossip. ;->

I would like to pay homage to ra, as I think he is right. I used to have second thoughts or doubts about some content I placed on the K-M forums. The problem is, we get to know one another. Then we are a group of friends, which is very good—but then we want to share things we are reasonably sure some of the others will find useful.

Plus, a browser is a magic carpet that goes everywhere in the universe. So, in one way or another, everything is on-topic.

Well, we have K-MeleON. I don't know just how difficult it would be to create a fifth forum, but here is my idea, guys:

K-Meleon General Forum
K-Meleon Development
K-Meleon Bugs
K-Meleon Improvement Requests
K-Meleoff

. . . in which, of course, K-Meleoff is indeed K-MeleOFF, or Off-Topic. It is our Lounge. Just like forum lounges everywhere else on the internet. There we can discuss those things that somehow seem to relate to our interests as a group, but they can be more far-ranging, or more personal, than we would wish to put into the General Forum.

How is that, ra? But what I really DON'T know is how feasible this is. Is it very difficult to do?

I don't think it would greatly increase the forum size, though. I think it would be more like placing another partition on a computer system. I suppose it would add to the size somewhat, but mostly I think it would just be a way of keeping things neater and tidier—um, and more on-topic. Even the off-topic things.
;)

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Anonymous User
Date: November 15, 2006 10:02PM

I don't think this to be difficult to do, I could even do it by myself.

But I will not do anything until the admin team gives their opinion.

Anyway, by an off-topic we have per month or two, I don't think this could be neccesary, I don't find disgussting to have off-topics on the general forum.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: guenter
Date: November 15, 2006 10:11PM

I agree - but all should comment - not only Admins.

Also think about possible tittles:
other software / goosip? "this and that?"
any ideas?

btw. you bet me with the medicamets spam ;-)

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: marcopolo
Date: November 15, 2006 11:33PM

Quote
carson
Well, we have K-MeleON. I don't know just how difficult it would be to create a fifth forum, but here is my idea, guys:

K-Meleon General Forum
K-Meleon Development
K-Meleon Bugs
K-Meleon Improvement Requests
K-Meleoff

My proposal:

K-Meleon Development & Improvement
K-Meleon Bugs & Problems
K-Meleon OFF topics

but if it is too short...

K-Meleon General Forum
K-Meleon Development
K-Meleon Bugs Discovered
K-Meleon Bugs Unsolved
K-Meleon Bugs Resolution
K-Meleon Improvement Requests
K-Meleon OFF Topics
K-Meleon Problems
K-Meleon Non Official versions
K-Meleon Browser Comparisons
K-Meleon Configuration
K-Meleon Extensions Proposal
K-Meleon Add-ons Proposal

XD

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: ra
Date: November 16, 2006 05:16AM

Quote
Carson
How is that, ra? But what I really DON'T know is how feasible this is. Is it very difficult to do?

Thanks for taking it up, Carson! I like your proposed forum setup. In order to avoid a fifth forum it would make sense to combine Development and Bugs, they seem to be closely related, IMO, so we would end up with
   K-Meleon General Questions (and Answers)
   K-Meleon Bugs and Development
   K-Meleon Improvement Requests
   K-M User's Off-Topic Lounge
The Off-Topic Lounge would offer the needed space to socialize without daunting (new) users looking for help on K-M (, only) for the time being.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: marcopolo
Date: November 16, 2006 05:56AM

Quote
ra
(...) they seem to be closely related (...)
K-Meleon General Questions (and Answers)
K-Meleon Bugs and Development
K-Meleon Improvement Requests
K-M User's Off-Topic Lounge

Bugs & Development? It's no logic, guy. A bug is a problem, never a development issue to treat. Improvement is more relationed with development according to the act of improving itself while something is being developed by somebody. In fact, development always implies improvement, nobody develops without some giving some improvement to the thing developed. Sometimes the results are good, and sometimes the results are bad.

Why not?
K-Meleon Development & Improvement
K-Meleon Bugs & Problems
K-Meleon off-topics area

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: gufi
Date: November 16, 2006 07:59AM

Just add the 'Off-Topic Lounge' and leave the rest as they already are.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: felipe
Date: November 16, 2006 04:00PM

Quote
marcopolo
Why not?
K-Meleon Development & Improvement
K-Meleon Bugs & Problems
K-Meleon off-topics area

Yes, why not?

Quote
gufi
Just add the 'Off-Topic Lounge' and leave the rest as they already are

I like this idea.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Carson
Date: November 17, 2006 07:04AM

Good stuff! Let's do it! Er—who do we give our money to?
;)

BECUZ, guys, then we can share things that we don't really have a place to post at the moment. For example, did you know that you can use your TuneUp Utilities 2006 (actually you can do this lots of different ways), in which you can go to

TuneUp Utilities 2006 >Customize and Analyze >Tuneup System Control
>Communication >Internet Explorer >View >Toolbar background image >Select...

and there you can browse your system for something like you might have just recently downloaded from, say, http://www.mytempdir.com/1064987
which, for example, might look like a bit of Vista Veil turquoise-blue background, and which (if only we could share things like this with one another) might make a very pretty blue wavy background to the main toolbar of your WINDOWS Explorer if you did that.

Of course, there are thousands of things we could share, and that is not even necessarily the best way to do that, but you get the idea. But the trouble is, there is absolutely no way I can communicate that at the moment, because it is, like, SO TOTAHLLY Off-Topic, y'know? . . .
;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2006 07:07AM by Carson.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: guenter
Date: November 17, 2006 07:32AM

I like Oeldies "Off-Topic Lounge" lets ask Enaitz & leave the rest as it is.

p. s. Virtual lounges come cheap :-) so we can always reconstruct.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Anonymous User
Date: November 17, 2006 07:54AM

I don't think this is so important since I really don't care about off-topic threads, maybe because they don't came often and when they do the use to be of help, or at least interesting.

But if you ask me, I would think about something like this:

1 General
2 Development and Bugs
3 Improvement Request
4 Off-Topic Billiards*

* Why not replacing the word lounge by something better sounding and cooler :-)

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Carson
Date: November 17, 2006 09:19AM

Haha! Well, sure! Enaitz, if you know how to do this, and if it could be changed later on anyway, I suggest you go right ahead and do it. If people are really opposed to it, it can be altered afterwards.

If we are TOO democratic, I'm afraid it just won't happen. Is that okay with you, Guenter? (Billiards or anything else for the moment—if Enaitz does the work, why not let him choose the name?)
smiling smiley

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: guenter
Date: November 17, 2006 10:23AM

ok - how about: general pc problems and chat? ( else general = common plus... )

sorry - international forum: Billiard = game in some laguages.

alternative:
1.) General (for every item, including off topic and other software, pc must run 4 k-m 2 )
2.) Emergency Problems ( now General ) // or: Problems & Help Requests?
3-5.) Rest as it is.

btw. i still like meritocracy better - pure democracy has disappointed me 2 often.
with the first i know that ppl that worked made mistakes, e.g. the k-m does'nt work. I get new every several months now.

with the later (as 2 my experiance ) ppl that made mistakes get paid well
& high pensions - & the whole society does'nt work. & must wait 4 years 4 change.

p.s. I am a little sorry that i insisted on the first here - 4 friends were casualty.

- how about my version? :-D & :'(



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2006 11:36AM by guenter.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Carson
Date: November 17, 2006 12:03PM

I don't know if I've ever seen a genuine democracy. I've always lived in an oligarchy, and it is all that I'm familiar with. I think a democracy would have to have everybody equally awake, meaning resistant to any form of hegemony. My own experience started a VERY long time ago, when I was young and worked in a loans department in a bank. I saw the effectiveness of so-called "add-on notes" sent out to people who had almost paid off their debts . . . they signed up for more, and it seemed so sad. Sometimes we saw their debts wreck their lives, for new cars and things the bank had pressed upon them.

The people had a choice, but we had psychologists and aggressive marketing techniques. The people always thought they were equal to the pressure, but they weren't equal at all. Well, a lot WERE, but so many were NOT. So they fell for the advertising. I was about 20 then. I realized how important it was that the people should THINK they were in charge; making their own free-will decisions. The bank depended on it, and the banks here were already filthy rich even then. So it began to shape my future thinking. A democracy implies a lot of different kinds of equality. THEN it would work. There would be very little money spent to persuade people of anything, though. Just information; no pressure. These things are perhaps impossible for people; I don't know. We need to change in the very centres of ourselves—people that are rich in money or strength or brains need to look after their weaker brothers; not exploit them.

Hey! Carson! Off-topic, Man! Oops. Sorry. Where's that new forum?

(And I'll edit this out tomorrow if it looks really bad. . .For now, good night.)

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: roger
Date: November 17, 2006 12:43PM

C'mon Enaitz, you've been given the 'high sign' and got the bull by the horns now. Call Off-Topic whatever you want. Put it in and let's go!

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Carson
Date: November 17, 2006 01:59PM

Heehee. And as soon as you do, we can discuss a super-fast freeware program called Safarp, which I just discovered at http://wistinga.online.fr/safarp/

What does it do? It replaces your slow, slow, S-L-O-W, Add or Remove Programs section with a better one that zaps up in a second! Off-topicness at its best!! smiling smiley

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: rmn
Date: November 17, 2006 04:04PM

I don't hate off-topic posts per se, but making them a rule rather than an exception is a bit too far, IMHO.

And a small warning: this will make the moderators' job more difficult because we'll see an increase in the amount of inappropriate posts. That's a sweeping argument, but I believe it's true.

P.S. Shouldn't this be discussed in the devlist first as well? Not everyone reads every oddly-titled thread in the forum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2006 04:07PM by rmn.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Anonymous User
Date: November 17, 2006 04:47PM

About politics.

Even at the risk to be blamed, I've to say that I profoundly dislike democracy. This makes count the opinion of everyone and for example, if we were discussing about a macro I wouldn't value the same the opinion of KKO and the opinion of myself. If we are having a echonomical problem and we let the people choose, the choosen one will be the most good looking handsome man available, if the most skilled one is ugly, gay, not a religious person (only in the US, Iran, and this kind of countries) or has had an extra-marital relationship, he will not be choosen by the crowds.

We are so afraid of leaving democracy that the next political system will be called something ending in democracy, as new democracy, techno democracy, or whatever.

About the forums, I will send a message to the dev list right now. I wanna be sure everyone knows about it before doing so.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: foobarly
Date: November 17, 2006 09:52PM

Quote
felipe
Quote
marcopolo
Why not?
K-Meleon Development & Improvement
K-Meleon Bugs & Problems
K-Meleon off-topics area

Yes, why not?

Quote
gufi
Just add the 'Off-Topic Lounge' and leave the rest as they already are

I like this idea.

I also think this the best solution. Non dispersive -- I only check General regularly...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2006 09:52PM by foobarly.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: guenter
Date: November 18, 2006 12:05AM

Enaitz: Democracy is a bad system - but the best i know :-)
The problem we sometimes have is that ppl that have no knowledge want to govern.

rmn: Enaitz is probably the most active moderator.
If the section becomes a nuisance we can restructure (& shut it down again).

Maybe we should try to get chatzilla working ;-) untill then I am also willing to have/moderate a section for other pc topics and chat.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: bst82551
Date: November 18, 2006 03:26AM

Quote
foobarly
Quote
felipe
Quote
marcopolo
Why not?
K-Meleon Development & Improvement
K-Meleon Bugs & Problems
K-Meleon off-topics area

Yes, why not?

Quote
gufi
Just add the 'Off-Topic Lounge' and leave the rest as they already are

I like this idea.

I also think this the best solution. Non dispersive -- I only check General regularly...

I also like this. Just those 3 together would be great.

Brian

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: wildbill
Date: November 18, 2006 06:15AM

Re: politics

The Swiss seem to have a democracy that works. The Swiss don't mess with anyone and nobody messes with them. Live and let live.

Re: off topic

The off topic idea is OK as long as it doesn't degenerate into trolling, flame wars and p*****g contests as I've seen it become on other forum websites.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: ra
Date: November 18, 2006 08:39AM

Quote
bst82551
Quote
foobarly
Quote
felipe
Quote
marcopolo
Why not?
K-Meleon Development & Improvement
K-Meleon Bugs & Problems
K-Meleon off-topics area

Yes, why not?

Quote
gufi
Just add the 'Off-Topic Lounge' and leave the rest as they already are

I like this idea.

I also think this the best solution. Non dispersive -- I only check General regularly...

I also like this. Just those 3 together would be great.

Brian

Sorry, but I don't think this is a good design. From a dev's point of view it's hard to make out relevant threads in Development & Improvement + Bugs & Problems. From a new user's point of view it's not clear where to ask simple questions. From a current user's point of view the usual place (General forum) to discuss how to "handle" K-M is missing.


So here's why I proposed the layout that I posted above:

-- K-Meleon General Questions (and Answers)

for starters, current users and everyone else who's interested and likes to help, all topics 'general' K-M related. Here is the place to ask questions like "(How) Can I do this and that with K-M?".

-- K-Meleon Bugs and Development

mainly for devs and bug-reporters, to discuss serious bug reports and development-related things (building K-M / plugins, ...). Developers should have it as easy as possible.
Currently, there isn't much traffic in both forums.

-- K-Meleon Improvement Requests

for all users to discuss new features and other improvement requests. Once there is some sort of consent these are supposed to be filed as RFE in the BTS or maybe posted together with code in the dev-forum. Currently, many requests can already be done with K-M quite easily...

-- K-M User's Off-Topic Lounge

yeah, the place to socialize, discuss other software, personal interests and so on.


But if that's too complex with all sorts of possible changes posted and no 'great' design we can all agree on, let's just add an off-topic forum and let's see how it evolves. [Although I think I'd really like my setup with four forums for a reason. <g>]

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: bst82551
Date: November 18, 2006 10:04AM

I think adding yet another section to the forums would only add to the confusion... so, I think I'd have to agree with what ra says. Combine bugs and development, rename general, add off topic.

Brian

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Carson
Date: November 18, 2006 12:40PM

I'm very close to ra too. There seem to be 4 sections, call them what you like:

K-Meleon Questions and Answers
Technical Requests
Project Development
Off-Topic

I did notice one thing: why mention Bugs in a title at all? Anyone qualified to identify a genuine bug would be familiar with K-Meleon, right? So he'd know to take his bug to the devs—in the Development section, of course. Newcomers mistake simple glitches for bugs, so it's really better if they stay in Q & A.

And the only reason I suggest "Technical Requests" is to make it just a little bit scary for newcomers, so they stay with Questions and Answers. But I'll be happy if everyone else is happy.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Dorian
Date: November 18, 2006 04:17PM

In my opinion kmeleon bugs and kmeleon improvment requests are misleading. Stuff posted here is often not put in the bugtracker when it should and lost for developpers. If the setting is changed, those should disappear somehow.

AFAIK Kmeleon developement was intended for macros/skins/plugins only, not for the development of kmeleon itself.

I'm not against having more forums, even with low traffic, because it makes search and sorting easier.

That's my 2 cents.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Carson
Date: November 19, 2006 01:37PM

—Then why not change the name of the development forum to exactly what Dorian suggests? For that one:

Macros, Skins, and Plugins
or
Macro, Skin, and Plugin Development

It sounds technical enough to make newbies a bit shy of it, and it has one excellent tribute: it says exactly what it means.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2006 01:39PM by Carson.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Grendel
Date: November 19, 2006 03:47PM

Two more forums for extensions / macros and unofficial builds would be handy, but the forum doesn't get much traffic as it is. I doubt an off-topic discussion forum would be very practical, either.

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: Carson
Date: November 20, 2006 11:57AM

—Well, maybe it isn't. I'm just not sure now. Originally I felt it was always fun to post things (such as RegSeeker) that were off-topic, but which might be of interest to other K-M users. Of course, people can visit other sites and their forums, but sometimes it is good to share with people who are more like friends.

But in the old days I was always unsure about posting these things. Maybe they cluttered up a very nice forum with extraneous material that appealed to only some people, and got in others' way.

So, this time around I was intending to watch out for that. If it's too big a deal, though, we can just skip it. No harm done.
smiling smiley

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Re: K-Meleoff
Posted by: guenter
Date: November 20, 2006 01:16PM

Maybe we should not call that section OT. Only Spam is totally OT.

We want pass on info about updates of helper applications
( Irfan View 3.99 came out ) & other PC related stuff that
happens on pc's where k-m is installed in a way so
that ppl totally uninterested in such things do not have to read it.

Else we leave such info in general ( as it always had been ) & mark it
clearly as other more loosely related "OT" stuff.

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