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General discussion about K-Meleon. 
Wine
Posted by: Steven W
Date: May 22, 2006 03:15AM

Was reading here:

http://www.winehq.com/?issue=313#Rendering%20HTML

"If you're looking to hack on Wine and want a project, one possibility would be to flesh out our IE program that was recently committed. Currently the iexplore.exe program is a simple window lacking the typical web browser controls. Fleshing out the program would involve implementing all the wonderful navigation features of a browser using the new API's."


Curious if maybe K-meleon could be gutted/adapted for this purpose??

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Re: Wine
Posted by: rmn
Date: May 22, 2006 08:25AM

I have no idea why they would want to create a new (Wine-based) web browser instead of using the platform's browser (other than for fun).

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Re: Wine
Posted by: guenter
Date: May 22, 2006 12:00PM

k-m possibly comes from a wrapper for the MS rendering engine.
It was a MS demo that came with their Compilers.
That is how i understand some old info.
You would replace the Gecko engine with the wine iexplore counterpart.
Maybe ask via devs mailing list.

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Re: Wine
Posted by: rmn
Date: May 22, 2006 04:53PM

Ah, yeah, I think you're right, guenter. K-Meleon would not be suitable, because, if I understand correctly, what this Wine component does is translate IE commands (in the interface program) to Gecko commands (as the backend). So, this is more applicable to any of the IE shells out there.

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Re: Wine
Posted by: guenter
Date: May 22, 2006 07:35PM

I am not sure whether that is bad or good?

k-m would be a locical choice. A dedicated Win32 browser that was originally a ie-shell?

Our old devs can possibly tell whether it is worth trying.
Consider to turn to the mailing list for info. It is an open list.

It might have something to use k-m because it evolved much further as independend
browser than other shells. k-ms modular build up is just smart. And well suited
to work on with a group of indiduals, because job split. & it = Free GNU software.

k-m ppl that went Linux would love the idea i guess.

There were these guys from theat US school that wanted to make k-m more engine
independent as project, i wonder what became out of that?

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Re: Wine
Posted by: Fred
Date: May 22, 2006 08:58PM

I use adapted K-Meleons very often for browsing under Linux,
using the distributions SLAX or DSL (Damn Small Linux).
I am worried about Microsoft's attempt to get complete control
over the user, when they make Vista the new and finally only
supported Windows system, after dropping support for XP after
a short period. Unfortunately, K-Meleon is not quite stable enough
under Linux for the average user. In the new 1.8 based versions
it is in addition not possible to use the address bar for URLs.
In these versions you have to start the prompt for the URL macro
to enter an URL (by CTRL+SHIFT+L).
I do not know, if K-Meleon is suited for the plans of the Wine
developers, to develop an IE replacing engine for people
that need Active X controls, but I would certainly be glad,
if it could be useful to prevent users to become, as we say
in German, "glaeserne Personen", which means something like
"persons made out of glass", whose every step in life can be
reconstructed, under the pretext to avoid dangers going out
from them. Let's hope that this will never happen.
Fred

.

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Re: Wine
Posted by: vpowell
Date: May 23, 2006 02:12AM

@Fred
I too worry about Windows becoming a Microsoft subscription service (Vista).
I also worry about the gradual loss of support for Win98 in recent open-source programs (for example A43 File Manager).
I feel it would be useful to supplement the mixed 16/32 bit operating systems (Win95, Win98, WinME) with open source libraries where possible; with the aim of gradually migrating to ReactOS (an open-source 32 bit OS intended to replace WinNT/XP that is highly compatible with Wine).
I also use 'Nix (Linux, GNU, FreeBSD, etc.) software that has been ported to Windows by including 'Nix libraries (like GIMPshop or i.File ).
(I would even be willing to work from Linux running on Windows if I could get it to work on my system...I haven't yet been able to do it)
Thank you for using K-Meleon on Wine!
(I am currently accessing the internet mostly on WinXP and (very rarely) on Win98.)

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Re: Wine
Posted by: Douglas
Date: May 23, 2006 03:21AM

@Fred
I'm intrigued by your comment "I use adapted K-Meleons very often for browsing under Linux using the distributions SLAX or DSL (Damn Small Linux)."
I wonder what K-M version(s) would you recommend for running via WINE under Linux? I've found the same K-M 1.0 address bar problem that you have.
(I'm setting up a SimplyMEPIS system at the moment - see http://www.mepis.com/ and http://www.mepislovers.org/ ).

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Re: Wine
Posted by: Fred
Date: May 23, 2006 05:16AM

@Douglas
K-Meleon 0.9.13 should work ok, if necessary
in windows only mode for better stability.
Using Groups could lead to instable behavior, this
could be replaced by a "Groups in windows" macro.
The position of the toolbars has to be fixed exactly
in prefs.js, as they cannot be moved properly in the
browser window.
When using Hao's version it is not advisable to
use a version earlier than about 5.3, because in the
beginning there was an ugly bug in right click,
that made the browser crash. This has been
changed. In Dorian's version it is the same in
versions earlier than about1.0.6, I think.
Now the versions based on 1.8 work allright,
except for the address bar, but it is easy to call
up the URL prompt.
The NoXul version of Hao is working too.
After a crash, that may happen, it is necessary to
delete the configuration file .wine of Wine and
let it be recreated, or recreate it yourself.
Of course, this is not stable enough for most
users, but feasible.
Regards
Fred

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Re: Wine
Posted by: Steven W
Date: May 23, 2006 06:32AM

@rmn

The reason "to create a new (Wine-based) web browser instead of using the platform's browser" is mentioned on the page of my original post:

"several years ago when Microsoft "integrated" the browser with its operating systems. The value, they argued, is that other applications could just use those API's to become web enabled. Well, it happened and it has been a problem for programs running under Wine that need to access those API's. It was somewhat stemmed by using the Mozilla ActiveX control. However, it's really necessary to have our own since the ActiveX control has proven to be problematic."

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Re: Wine
Posted by: Douglas
Date: May 23, 2006 07:03AM

Thanks for the information Fred. I will experiment!

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Re: Wine
Posted by: rmn
Date: May 23, 2006 07:06PM

@ Steven W:

I understand their need to create an IE-compatible engine (or bridge the API to Gecko's) to run those ActiveX controls. What I don't understand is why they need a full-blown Web browser written specifically for Wine. There are two easier alternatives: use the platform's browser, or use any available IE shell.

Other than for fun, of course (or the "not invented here" syndrome).

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Re: Wine
Posted by: vpowell
Date: May 23, 2006 10:05PM

@rmn
If I understand right...

1)using the platforms browser isn't an option because they are trying to make a fully compatible operating system (thus they have to emulate or replace every function)
2)using a shell isn't possible because it's the IE engine (the part that is integrated with the operating system) that is buggy and problematic (not the wrapper/shell)

...so basically they have to implement a replacement IE engine that actually works, and is stable enough to run integrated with Wine (on top of that they can paste a shell, but it ought to look similar to IE).

That means they are writing a new browser (though it can have some old parts, maybe even some of ours).

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Re: Wine
Posted by: -o~*>
Date: May 23, 2006 10:13PM

@vpowell:

Just tried the dsl-embedded thing here on my machine and it worked kinda flawlessly. Only disadvantage is that I'm unable to share my network-adapter it seems, that means I can't use internet with dsl + win at the same time :-(

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Re: Wine
Posted by: vpowell
Date: May 23, 2006 11:06PM

Thanks for the report,
All my efforts to use embedded DSL (embedded Damn-Small Linux) has resulted in shrunken distorted non-functional DOS-boxes with microscopic lettering...
...but I am still hoping to get something like that up and running.

Another possible choice would be Cooperative Linux which is a "free and open source method for optimally running Linux on Microsoft Windows natively. More generally, Cooperative Linux (short-named coLinux) is a port of the Linux kernel that allows it to run cooperatively alongside another operating system on a single machine" (if you have sufficient permissions it allows sharing of the Windows and Linux resources and files). I have never gotten that to work either. It is a port of the Linux kernel only; so you have to have a Linux distribution available during the installation of Cooperative Linux to refer the installer to in order to complete the install (sorry, that's clumsy grammar)

A third possibility that doesn't work anymore would be Workspot (an online Linux subscription service). They aren't taking any more subscribers, and even their demo is on permanent overload.

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Re: Wine
Posted by: -o~*>
Date: May 24, 2006 02:56AM

whats your OS vpowell? Forgot to mention in my previous post, I'm running w2k sp4.
If I'll manage to use the net with the embedded dsl thingie at the same time with windows it will be more than sufficient for me.

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Re: Wine
Posted by: vpowell
Date: May 24, 2006 05:07AM

WinXP Professional SP2

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Re: Wine
Posted by: rmn
Date: May 24, 2006 12:55PM

> using the platforms browser isn't an option because they are trying to make a fully compatible operating system

The Wine project does not try to create an operating system. The project that aims to do that is ReactOS. Related, but different.

I've also been inconsistent here. ReactOS does need a Web browser, either by writing their own (just a simple one like IE, perhaps), or by adopting an existing IE-based browser as their official browser. On the other hand, IMHO Wine does not need a Web browser.

Anyway, I think I've talked too much off topic.

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Re: Wine
Posted by: Fred
Date: May 24, 2006 05:09PM

@ rmn
I am not sure, but as I understand the citation, they look for
a browser platform, that could better handle Active X controls,
because they are originally taylored to work with IE.

@ vpowell
DSL devs advise in their FAQ not to use an embedded DSL with
a computer with less than 1 Gb ram, because as they say,
it would be 4 to 5 times slower, than with a DSL Live CD.
I have a lot of .dsl extensions ready for use on my CD,
as Open Office, Abiword, Gimp, which can be called up
in a short time, and are more or less compatible with
Windows file types. As DSL has a size of only about 50 Mb,
there is ample room left on a CD for other applications,
from the .dsl library or others, like Seamonkey, Opera or
Firefox. And there is the advantage of a very high security
level with a read only medium only mounted.

Fred

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Re: Wine
Posted by: rmn
Date: May 24, 2006 07:43PM

Oops, I made a mistake in my second post: this has nothing to do with ActiveX in general.

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Re: Wine
Posted by: vpowell
Date: May 24, 2006 10:31PM

@rmn
Yes, you are right (brain-fade on my part) ReactOS is the operating system, Wine is the (related) "translation layer/program loader" to run Windows-apps on POSIX operating systems.
Wine is not an operating system or an emulator, but if it is to work transparently it has to respond to all the same calls from the programs. So if the program calls for an IE-engine function because the Windows-OS that the program was written for has an integrated IE-engine, they have make a clone of the IE-engine. It doesn't have to be a full browser, but if you have used MS-Word or MS-Outlook in their recent versions, or even done extensive work with explorer.exe in any recent Windos-OS, you will realize that they are so intertwined with IE that they are almost shells for IE. Thus the people at WineHQ basically have to cobble together their own IE-browser.
I am posting this from "explorer" (actually IE) in Windows XP (open any folder, paste url into the "Address" bar in explorer, push the "Go" button...).

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Re: Wine
Posted by: yankeedoodler
Date: May 25, 2006 11:24AM

I'm glad to see K-Meleon can be run on Linux using Wine. Found out my laptop with a Pentium 3 Mobile chip won't run Vista so I'll moving to Linux as soon as Vista is released.

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Re: Wine
Posted by: Steven W
Date: May 27, 2006 03:47AM

This is sorta off the topic:

http://picasa.google.com/linux/

It's beta it uses wine, over 200 patches were submitted to Wine:

http://code.google.com/wine.html

rmn, I kinda get what you're saying about a full browser, but if you're going through all the trouble of implementing an "IE-compatible engine", you may as well slap a UI on it. I'd like to see it incorporated into Reactos (they already use Wine's notepad). I could even fathom using one of the litePC utilities (http://www.litepc.com/) wiping out IE and incorporating Wine's implementation. Maybe I'm dreaming.

SW smiling smiley

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Re: Wine
Posted by: roger
Date: June 02, 2006 02:06AM

@yankeedoodler,

I've got a notebook computer that will NOT become an expensive paperweight just because it doesn't meet Microsoft Vista's system requirements. There are many Linux distros to choose from but finding one that will work with my notebook hardware is the problem. ReactOS looks promising but it is still in Alpha, or so the Home Page says last time I looked. Not many people will use an OS in Alpha or Beta as their everyday OS. Maybe they will have a final ready before Vista is released.

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Re: Wine
Posted by: guenter
Date: June 02, 2006 02:10AM

jap - i wait 4 Reactos Untill then i will use my old ME and the recent XPs I ve got.

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Re: Wine
Posted by: Douglas
Date: June 02, 2006 04:17PM

Watch out for the new release (6.0) of MEPIS in a 2-3 weeks. You can try it out as a live CD without touching your existing OS at all. I've found MEPIS's hardware detection to be exceptional and the only Linux distribution so far which has a permanent place on my home PCs. (PCLinuxOS is good too for Windows refugees, and exceedingly attractive, but not quite as sharp as MEPIS functionally.)

See:
http://www.mepis.com
http://www.mepislovers.org

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