A few weeks back a phrase from one of the developers stuck in my mind. He said something along the lines of, "if you use free software always be very polite." That struck me as eminently sensible advice, and I am endeavouring to follow it here. I read he material on the develoment schedule, and wondered if I could ever so politely do an Oliver Twist number - "please, sir, may I have some more?" K-meleon is already my default browser, and I am greedy for more. II know that 0.7 will come when it comes, but may I ask if there is any sort of time frame on just when that might be? I am very grateful for the hard work of all who have brought K-meleon to where it's at, and totally respect your right to tell me to STFU or FOAD for asking, but if it is possible to a ballpark estimate on 0.7's ETA, that would be a lovely bonus. Thanks

Max,

I can't speak for the developers but I know that they had hoped to do the next full release after Mozilla 0.9.7 came out. As it was just released yesterday, I think we can probably expect to see K-Meleon 0.7 in the next month or so. It usually takes a couple of weeks to get the new version synched with the Mozilla build and then to do the beta testing to get the bugs worked out. Plus, if there are new features to be included, that usually requires quite a bit of testing too. Also, you have to factor in the holidays as a delay before the next release. I know that's kind of vague but I think 0.7 is on the horizon.

Andrew

could be a 0.6.1 minor release will be avaiable in a few days.. at least I hope that..
best wishes
lele

Yes, well.... Speaking as a developer myself, I feel I must make a statement on this whole trip some developers get on regarding the attitude of some users.

Firstly, politeness and respect is the bare minimum in human affairs, no matter what the situation. Having said that, I reject the notion that users haven't the right to criticize or request new functionality. I also reject the idea that developers, even (perhaps *especially*) of Open Source, needn't be responsive to users. Yes, even in Open Source, the power relationship is 50:50. It's not 75:25, 60:40 (whatever, you pick your ratio) in favor of the developer. It's quite simple: if anyone has a problem with this notion (I'm talking to me developer brethren here), THEN DON'T RELEASE YOUR SOFTWARE UNDER OPEN SOURCE. Charge money for it. I often think some work under Open Source so they can possess power over others. Face it guys, you get as much benifit from the users as they get from you, and you know it. You have the right to ask for respect, but you don't have the right to restrict development to whatever you consider to be right or wrong. You gotta give the people what they want (and/or need.) Not everyone can or does know how to write code. The moment you release under Open Spource, you have an obligation to the users to write it well, and write what the majority wants. On the flip side, the users have an obligation to work with the developer to make the software the best it can be- by submitting good bug reports, requesting new features, and submitting ideas on how to otherwise improve the software. It's a COLLABRATIVE effort. If you question this, ask yourself: what are you writing the software for? If you answer, "for yourself", you need to get out of Open Source right away. I'm serious, leave now. Open Source cannot abide by your attitude. Too many people in the world are counting on you and your work you you to take such a selfish attitude. If you can't handle the responsibility, please do everyone a favor and go. Now. I had a conversation with a user once, wherein they essentially told me they'd rather pay for software from a responsive developer that writes good code to begin with, than deal with an Open Source developer that thinks they do and *should* hold all the cards. (The point also came up that paying for something from an unresponsive closed source developer is at least as bad, but that's another story.)

I suggest you take a page from some tourism ads from stateside I saw circulating up north here in Canada (I'm up here for a conference for the next week.) The last line of the ads is "We are here to serve you." Think about that. That's not to say to are here to serve the users, it *is* a two-way street. You should, however, take a moment and maybe be humbled a little bit. Where would you be without anyone to write for? Probably sitting at home twiddling your dicky. Think about it.

Geoffe,

I'm not sure if that was directed at the K-Meleon developers. While I agree with some of your points, I think the "attitude" seems to imply that somehow the K-Meleon developers, which I am NOT one of, are somehow lacking in this department.

It has never been my experience that the developers of K-Meleon have been opposed to criticism and requests for improvements. I've seen the huge strides that have taken place since 0.4, when I discovered K-Meleon. Many of these improvements have been at the request of users. Plus, there is an active forum and bug tracking system. Why would they have those if they didn't want input?

I know some users have requested functionality that the developers have stated they won't provide. I think the developers have made several valid points:

1) There is still so much to do that they have to decide what needs to be a priority for development purposes.

2) K-Meleon is an open-source project. If someone wants to code that functionality, there is nothing stopping from doing that and presenting the solution for inclusion.

3) K-Meleon has been designed to be modular with plugins, etc. that allows others to code additional functionality, if they so desire.

I disagree that the developers have some obligation to code for users just because people demand something. They have a limited amount of time and nobody is paying for it. The developers have to decide what they spend their time on. If people don't like it, they can always go elsewhere.

There's a difference between a developer saying "I'm not going to do that code" and "You can't do that code". The K-Meleon developers have never said that someone can't code an e-mail client or tabs or some other functionality. They have just been up front and honest and said that they won't be doing that themselves. That's fine with me. I appreciate their honesty and as always, their hard work on this browser.

Andrew

Hey Andrew. :-)

No, it wasn't directed specifically at K-Meleon develpers (though they could apply my "wisdom" to their refusal to integrate an MDI in K-Meleon.) If I had posted this, say, on Miranda's forums I'm sure someone there would have had the same reaction as you.

I guess, based on your reply, that we have a philisophical difference of opinion here. One of the arguements you gave against my pont of view is that a developer often is too busy to implement everything everybody wants. Trust me when I say I understand this concept, being a developer myself. I would have thought it went w/o saying that a developer only has so much time in which to work, and that this is a practical limit to how much they can do. This is unrelated to the attitude some coders take, though, that end-users essentially "deserve whatever they get from developers and they should submit bugs only, and not make "demands" of the devs." I also have to speak to the notion that the code is open and therefore everyone has the oportunity to contribute. I know you didn't say "everyone" but that was the implication IMO. I know this: even as a developer (of closed and open source), my plate is 110% full with things. If it went down to 100%, I can think of at least 20 projects I'd like to make a contribution to. So you see, the fact is it's not just non-technical end-users that rely on the work of developers. I can tell you one thing, nothing irks me more than an arrogant (to be frank) developer that takes the attitude of "you get what I give you", and "put up or shut up." I say this as a developer, so I can only imagine how the "lowly" end-user feels (haven't been that in a while...)

I will say this: there's a good chance you use software I've either contributed to or originated myself. Don't ask me to tell you what stuff I work/have worked on. My opinion is pretty unpopular in the dev community and if anyone knew who I was it'd almost definitely make it difficult for me to do what I do. If you have or use my software (which is probably the case), know this: you get my best. I take any and all comments w/o prejudice, even if they come wrapped in the most heinous prejudice I've ever seen. In my experience, nothing neutralizes a non-productive, @!#$ attitude better than an even tempered, positive response. I don't take it personally, and usually the person is making a legitamate point.

Why do I give away K-Meleon? for the same reason I give someone a pencil when I've got a whole box and they need one.
Imagine if I gave that person a blue one and they ask for a green. If I have a green one, I wouldn't really mind giving them a green one instead, but if all I have are blue pencils, then by your logic I'd be obligated to go find him a green pencil. That by agreeing to let him borrow a pencil, I've somehow become his pencil-fetching servant. Seems like a pretty silly idea to me. I don't *have* to give him a pencil, and he doesn't *have* to use my pencil. By the same token I don't *have* to give away the code to k-meleon, and ya'll don't *have* to download and use it.

I program k-meleon because if I didn't, no one else would (note: I know Jeff has contributed about an equal amount, but he certainly would not be able to do it all himself (and by that same note, I couldn't do it all without Jeff either)). I would *love* to sit by and "twiddle my dicky" while someone else made k-meleon, but I know that wouldn't happen, and my desire to have a browser that doesn't suck pushes me to work on it instead of doing other things I should be doing instead. If you guys really want me to leave open source, I will. I'll still program k-meleon and give it to my friends and family simply because I want to, but if my checking things in to CVS is somehow damaging to the world, I can stop.

oh, and to answer the original question, i predict 0.7 some time in early to mid January.

*sigh*

*Whatever* Brian. Have a nice Christmas......

Btw, the fact that you'd threaten to stop development of K-Meleon after 1 lousy user decides to express his views on this subject reflects pretty badly on you my friend (as far as I'm concerned.) I wasn't even directing my comments at you or Jeff specifically. How many times do I have to say that? I guess this would be your way of (attemting to) put an end to anything other than absolute devotion to your efforts from users? All I can say is you're just proving the reason why I'm not interested in revealing what stuff I've worked or am doing now.

Now that you've made it personal, let me ask you: Do you really believe that someone else wouldn't have come along and did what you've done here? Or is that what you believe the average user of K-Meleon thinks, and you're leveraging that perception to bring an abrupt end to this dicussion? Do you really see yourself as that indespensible? ("Let this new front-end to Gecko be given unto the faithful followers, on high, from God.") Probably you're feeling fairly disgruntled about now, saying to yourself, "@!#$ them (but you really mean 'him', meaning me.) Let them eat cake." That would be pretty selfish, but then given the irreconcilable difference of opinion that exists between people that think like me and those that think like you, I'd just say it's par for the course. Let's see, which point of view would the world do better by?

Anyway, like I said, have a nice X-Mas, and say hello to Jesus for me eh?

If I had some useful words of wisdom to offer for you two I would, being clergy I am accoustomed to defusing conflicts in the church. I say that because the devotion of coders to their work is often at least as strong as many have in their relationship to God.
The only thing I have to offer is this: I get the feeling you are using the same words but speaking different languages. That is, agreeing on terms but not on definations.

We, the not technical computer using public, need both your efforts I don't want either to back off after being offended.
NTP

that's why I didn't say "if you want me to..." because i know that there are many other users besides you. my point (which was apparently lost) was that I'm not hurting anyone by releasing my code, in fact I'm actually helping some people, so it's kind of silly to suggest that I (or anyone) stop.

and yes, I really believe if I didn't, no one else would. When I picked up k-meleon, it had been pretty much stagnant for a while, since christophe started working heavily on Winamp 3 development (not that I blame him or anything, I would have done the same thing). For months I was the only developer, then Jeff started helping (with much joy from me). For the past month or so, me and Jeff put K-Meleon on the back burner while we focused on other projects we had been neglecting. There have only been 19 CVS checkins in the last 2 months (we normally average about 150/month). We have only received 1 piece of code (a bugfix) from someone other than me or Jeff.

You said, "those that reject this idea shouldn't work in opensource." and "those that make software, 'for yourself' should get out of opensource" since I reject that idea, and make k-meleon for myself, I took it to mean you were talking about me. If you weren't really talking about me, then perhaps you would like to go back and rephrase your comments?

I'm going to ignore the jesus comment, since I really have no idea what you're talking about since, assuming Jesus was ever alive, he's quite dead now; and I've not taken up speaking to the dead.
Have fun celebrating whatever holidays your religion has around this time (if it has any).

If everything that gets suggested gets put into KM there would be no point in KM, it would become Mozilla. The whole reason for KM is to have a fast, non-bloated browser.

While I would really like to see an e-mail client related to KM I don't want it built in. I want to be able to run a small e-mail app and only load the browser when I need to. They could obviously share DLLs, but don't require you to load both to use one.

While this would be great, I wouldn't want the KM developers to slow down work on the browser to add in an e-mail client.

They are doing a service to us all, they are not at our service.

A email program that works good with this browser is pegasus mail at www.pmail.com

And about K-Meleon I think its the best browser I have had ever used and hope you guys keep up the good work

I don't know how to write code I am good with the hardware for computers and things like that and I know I would have to do alot to get into coding so I am glad when I fine a program thats like this one thanks again for workuing to make such a good browser

There is a plugin architecture for kmeleon. May be the kmeleon plugin architecture can be extended so that new features can be added (like a plugin for multitabbed browsing, plugin to invoke external download manager or email clients). If this is possible then people can start developing plugins of what ever they want.

If the extension of the plugins is in such a way that users can control it from macros then every thing will be customized by the user. In an ideal world I will be able to do things like

startup_macro()//loaded when started{
plugin.tabbedbrowser.init();
plugin.tabbedbrowser.addTab("Bookmarks","C:\bookmarks.html");
plugin.downloadmanager.add("My download Manger");
}

emailthispage_macro(){
plugin.emailclient.send(thispage);
}

etc..etc..

These are just suggestions, I don't if this is a good idea or a bad one.

Will Christophe return some time after they released the Winamp3 final? Or has he quit K-Meleon forever? I am just asking, because he is one of my favourite programmers. He did some great work with Kaillera and MAMEDC for the emulation scence and seeing, that he works on Winamp and K-Meleon (which are both great programs, even that Winamp has "sold out" to AOL...) makes my heart cheer
That doesn't mean I don't appreciate all the work Jeff, Brain and Andrew do. They are the essential parts of it at the moment and they keep this great project up and running (and don't forget all the ppl that submit bug reports or submit changes...don't have any names in my mind :/ )

btw...why is the actual source of K-Meleon (the 0.6 one) not available? There's just 0.5 at sourceforge and I guess it's not that good for other programmers, that want to help if the source is always one version behind. Or can you get the source only via CVS now?

Kidman,

Good questions. I would just point out that I just do documentation and bug hunting. Brian and Jeff are the kings of coding. But you are right, we have a ton of great people who help out on this project including lele, with the resources, and some of are great bug trackers like po, scratch and a bunch others that I won't remember at the moment.

Andrew

I don't think Christophe really has any plans to work on kmeleon in the future. In fact, he'd probably be pretty lost if he tried, I don't think any of his original code is still in here. He released .1 and .2, which was mostly just the mozilla winembed code with some 3rd party toolbar support. After that, Brian moved most of the codebase to the mozilla MFCEmbed, since winembed was no longer being supported by the mozilla team. Around that time I got involved and it's just been Brian and myself (as coders, Andrew et al have been around for documentation/support) for .4, .5, and .6.

The source for .6 is only available through CVS because I was in the middle of my vacation when I released it, and I didn't have all of the plugin source code in order at that time...

Maybe one of these days, I can write the history of K-Meleon!
:-)

Andrew

I guess you are right about the core code of K-Meleon. Would be a pain in the ass to understand it (well...he ported MAME to DC...I guess the MAME code isn't that easy to understand, too). But K-Meleon works with plugins, so he could still do or improve some plugins
At the end it's his decision and abilities, that put him back into the project (if...). But it would be nice to see him back in the team (and one more main programmer would help the project a lot, I guess)

Having used IE since ver 3, Netscape since 3, Mozilla, Opera, Galeon, Konquerer -- K-Meleon is my favorite. All I want the browser to do is display web pages. I want the ui to stay out of the way. Tabbed browsing would be a nice addition, but K-M launces new windows so fast that "Open in New Window" works just as well.

The pop-up control is a nice feature.

This product is a job well done.

For a living, I maintain the content for a web site. K-M is what I recommend to users looking for an alternative to IE.

Thanks to all who contributed to this wonderful product